5 ms·

Americans are doing less DIY. It's another worrying sign for the economy

42 points by squircle 2y ago

imbusy111 2y ago
Labor is just way too expensive. At this point I wonder if I should stay a software engineer, or switch to construction. We've looked down on construction workers a bit too much.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  Way too expensive for what? If you're making under the $40/h that they do and you're still young and fit then maybe you could switch? I hear this sentiment a lot though but knowing plenty of blue collar workers they aren't so desperate for bodies they're beating down the doors of middle aged softhands like us.
  - pclmulqdq 2y ago
    Heavy equipment operators start at around $100/hour where I live. A more extreme case is that I know a union AC tech in NYC who makes the equivalent of a Google salary (about $300-400k/year) and he doesn't pull a ton of overtime to do it.
    - geor9e 2y ago
      >AC tech in NYC who makes the equivalent of a Google salary My immediate thought was "thats crazy, capitalism is out of whack" My second thought was realizing I couldn't rationalize Google salaries either. I could imagine a parallel universe where they make less than civil/mechanical engineers (~$160 TC). Supply and demand I guess.
      - ein0p 2y ago
        It’s easy to rationalize Google TC by looking at their balance sheet. Thanks to the work of Google employees it basically prints money. It’s only fair that they share in this success, since if Google could find someone cheaper, it would.
      - pclmulqdq 2y ago
        It takes a lot of money to get people to compromise their morals. That's why wall street has to pay so well, and I think it's the same for ad tech.
- Loughla 2y ago
  The problem with highly paid jobs like construction is that you don't start there. You start low and work your way up. Oh, and the absolute toll it takes on your body. That, too. I went to college to get away from Blue collar work after seeing my uncles with major surgery in their late 40's.
  - emseetech 2y ago
    I don't want to undercut the very real physical toll of blue collar labor, but I'll note that the blue collar people I know who wore protective gear including knee pads, did things by the book, followed safety protocols and ate a healthy diet are doing so much better in late middle age than the ones who fit the construction worker stereotype.
- jmathai 2y ago
  Or solve a problem in this space and productize it. After 20+ years in software, that’s what I’m doing and it is so refreshing. https://trywireshark.com https://trywireshark.com
  - lancesells 2y ago
    Very cool. I immediately thought if you get big enough there would be Wireshark compatible base boards.
    - jmathai 2y ago
      That would be cool indeed. I haven’t thought about others creating Wireshark compatible baseboards but it’s an idea I can get behind! Thanks for your feedback.
- blinded 2y ago
  No joke. I really like dry wall and painting.
caseyy 2y ago
We have a culture of "nothing is safe, always hire a professional", and a culture of companies working against the right to repair. Most simple electronics repairs and household repairs remain very doable for everyone, and would save them a lot of money.
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  It's particularly strange considering YouTube now has a wealth of videos showing practically all aspects of how to do something. In my down time I've been helping out a bunch of home improvement projects being done by several other people just to help out This type of thing is a major major source of post educational adult male socialization, and I think it's something that adult males need in a serious way. I agree that the culture that surrounds it is kind of dying off. But it also might be a sign of the fact that housing is simply out of reach of an entire generation or perhaps even two generations now. Only old people have houses anymore might actually be true in a very very general sense. And young people with lots of energy and healthy backs have the time and motivation to DIY, if only they had their own houses.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    Many cities don't allow diy. I know how but I'm not allowed.
    - AlbertCory 2y ago
      what city do you live in? How are you "not allowed"?
      - bluGill 2y ago
        I am not allowed to get a permit. I can cheat if it isn't visible from outside but if caught I'll be forced to pay someone to undo everything
        AlbertCory 2y ago
aftbit 2y ago
Is this less relative to broad historical trends, or less compared to the boom of 2020 and 2021, when people were flush with cash and suddenly spending a lot more time in their houses? And even if it's less relative to more typical times, how much of that is people "pushing forward" projects back in 2020? I wonder similar things about computer manufacturer sales. As much as they'd like us to all be on a one-year upgrade cycle for both phones and laptops, modern hardware happily lasts three to seven years depending on how you use it. Many people bought new hardware during the beginning of WFH times in the pandemic, and now they don't need to buy a new PC for a few years, but Lenovo et al act like the sky is falling when they see a lower quarter after a huge boom.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Sounds like a cylical business. When times are good you buy equipment and then it is relatively new when times are bad so you don't have to buy more. contrast to food which people need a relatively constant amount of. (even then you buy less expensive food when times are bad)
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    the major difference is that COVID for a lot of industries represented a one-time-sync event. people used to be more spread out but being stuck at home really made certain activities much more attractive.
jmathai 2y ago
The article has more to do with the economy than DIY itself. But I’m working on a system which makes wiring projects a lot simpler. This includes both high voltage (install a new outlet) as well as low (run Ethernet or speaker cable). I think this system makes projects a lot more appealing on both cost (can reduce tools needed for a job) and safety (the system ensure code compliance). Perhaps this type of innovation helps people not have to sit on the sidelines :) https://trywireshark.com https://trywireshark.com for those interested.
- GavinMcG 2y ago
  I’d imagine you might be aware, but just in case, there’s a Wireshark networking software that’s been around since 1998: https://www.wireshark.org/ https://www.wireshark.org/
  - jmathai 2y ago
    I am. I made the decision to go ahead with this name assuming most people don’t know that Wireshark. I also understood search queries would be impossible but didn’t think that would be a deal breaker. I’m considering this feedback I have been getting but I don’t know yet if it’s biased because many people I know are in tech. Changing the name is not a huge setback for the foreseeable future until there’s brand recognition. Thanks for the feedback.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      it's fair to point out that they're different markets, but how many words do you want your potential customers to have type into Google in order to give you money?you're never going to out-seo the Ethernet capture tool Wireshark, so "Wireshark tool wire Ethernet" isn't going to be any better than trying to search for Wireshark. but I feel you. naming things is hard, even outside of computer science. my friend has a zero knowledge password entry system and we've sat and just talked about names for hours and hours and gone back and forth. anyway, my two cents is change the name to something that's less impossible to SEO better than. you want your users to find you and "Wireshark" just seems like a difficult name for a product to compete against, especially given all the other animals in the sea. wirefish doesn't seem particularly claimed.
bastard_op 2y ago
South Park said it best about the handyman, at least some media gets where we're at.
stn8188 2y ago
All the theories about DIY culture are interesting and maybe contribute some to the conclusion, but I think it's a lot more about material costs. Lots of things are back down from the crazy prices around COVID, but some things stayed high. A few examples I just dug through my emails for: - 5 gal Drylok waterproofing paint went from $104 in Jan. 2020 to $143 last week - 2x6x12' lumber: $9.57 in May 2019 to $12.22 now - 1/2" 4x8 of drywall was $9.57 in May of '18, $13.98 now Of course prices can be expected to go up in 5 years, but personally we've deferred a bunch of projects waiting for prices to stabilize a bit.
- SkyPuncher 2y ago
  Lumber prices kill nearly every DIY project I want to do. Nearly every project I want to do turns into “well, that’s not cheap. Might as well just contract it out - after I save for it”
wrp 2y ago
Lord Finchley tried to mend the Electric Light Himself. It struck him dead: And serve him right! It is the business of the wealthy man To give employment to the artisan. --Hilaire Belloc

42 points by squircle 2y ago

Labor is just way too expensive. At this point I wonder if I should stay a software engineer, or switch to construction. We've looked down on construction workers a bit too much.

giraffe_lady 2y ago
Way too expensive for what? If you're making under the $40/h that they do and you're still young and fit then maybe you could switch? I hear this sentiment a lot though but knowing plenty of blue collar workers they aren't so desperate for bodies they're beating down the doors of middle aged softhands like us.
- pclmulqdq 2y ago
  Heavy equipment operators start at around $100/hour where I live. A more extreme case is that I know a union AC tech in NYC who makes the equivalent of a Google salary (about $300-400k/year) and he doesn't pull a ton of overtime to do it.
  - geor9e 2y ago
    >AC tech in NYC who makes the equivalent of a Google salary My immediate thought was "thats crazy, capitalism is out of whack" My second thought was realizing I couldn't rationalize Google salaries either. I could imagine a parallel universe where they make less than civil/mechanical engineers (~$160 TC). Supply and demand I guess.
    - ein0p 2y ago
      It’s easy to rationalize Google TC by looking at their balance sheet. Thanks to the work of Google employees it basically prints money. It’s only fair that they share in this success, since if Google could find someone cheaper, it would.
    - pclmulqdq 2y ago
      It takes a lot of money to get people to compromise their morals. That's why wall street has to pay so well, and I think it's the same for ad tech.
Loughla 2y ago
The problem with highly paid jobs like construction is that you don't start there. You start low and work your way up. Oh, and the absolute toll it takes on your body. That, too. I went to college to get away from Blue collar work after seeing my uncles with major surgery in their late 40's.
- emseetech 2y ago
  I don't want to undercut the very real physical toll of blue collar labor, but I'll note that the blue collar people I know who wore protective gear including knee pads, did things by the book, followed safety protocols and ate a healthy diet are doing so much better in late middle age than the ones who fit the construction worker stereotype.
jmathai 2y ago
Or solve a problem in this space and productize it. After 20+ years in software, that’s what I’m doing and it is so refreshing. https://trywireshark.com https://trywireshark.com
- lancesells 2y ago
  Very cool. I immediately thought if you get big enough there would be Wireshark compatible base boards.
  - jmathai 2y ago
    That would be cool indeed. I haven’t thought about others creating Wireshark compatible baseboards but it’s an idea I can get behind! Thanks for your feedback.
blinded 2y ago
No joke. I really like dry wall and painting.

caseyy 2y ago

We have a culture of "nothing is safe, always hire a professional", and a culture of companies working against the right to repair. Most simple electronics repairs and household repairs remain very doable for everyone, and would save them a lot of money.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago
It's particularly strange considering YouTube now has a wealth of videos showing practically all aspects of how to do something. In my down time I've been helping out a bunch of home improvement projects being done by several other people just to help out This type of thing is a major major source of post educational adult male socialization, and I think it's something that adult males need in a serious way. I agree that the culture that surrounds it is kind of dying off. But it also might be a sign of the fact that housing is simply out of reach of an entire generation or perhaps even two generations now. Only old people have houses anymore might actually be true in a very very general sense. And young people with lots of energy and healthy backs have the time and motivation to DIY, if only they had their own houses.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Many cities don't allow diy. I know how but I'm not allowed.
  - AlbertCory 2y ago
    what city do you live in? How are you "not allowed"?
    - bluGill 2y ago
      I am not allowed to get a permit. I can cheat if it isn't visible from outside but if caught I'll be forced to pay someone to undo everything
      - AlbertCory 2y ago

aftbit 2y ago

Is this less relative to broad historical trends, or less compared to the boom of 2020 and 2021, when people were flush with cash and suddenly spending a lot more time in their houses? And even if it's less relative to more typical times, how much of that is people "pushing forward" projects back in 2020? I wonder similar things about computer manufacturer sales. As much as they'd like us to all be on a one-year upgrade cycle for both phones and laptops, modern hardware happily lasts three to seven years depending on how you use it. Many people bought new hardware during the beginning of WFH times in the pandemic, and now they don't need to buy a new PC for a few years, but Lenovo et al act like the sky is falling when they see a lower quarter after a huge boom.

bluGill 2y ago
Sounds like a cylical business. When times are good you buy equipment and then it is relatively new when times are bad so you don't have to buy more. contrast to food which people need a relatively constant amount of. (even then you buy less expensive food when times are bad)
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  the major difference is that COVID for a lot of industries represented a one-time-sync event. people used to be more spread out but being stuck at home really made certain activities much more attractive.

jmathai 2y ago

The article has more to do with the economy than DIY itself. But I’m working on a system which makes wiring projects a lot simpler. This includes both high voltage (install a new outlet) as well as low (run Ethernet or speaker cable). I think this system makes projects a lot more appealing on both cost (can reduce tools needed for a job) and safety (the system ensure code compliance). Perhaps this type of innovation helps people not have to sit on the sidelines :) https://trywireshark.com https://trywireshark.com for those interested.

GavinMcG 2y ago
I’d imagine you might be aware, but just in case, there’s a Wireshark networking software that’s been around since 1998: https://www.wireshark.org/ https://www.wireshark.org/
- jmathai 2y ago
  I am. I made the decision to go ahead with this name assuming most people don’t know that Wireshark. I also understood search queries would be impossible but didn’t think that would be a deal breaker. I’m considering this feedback I have been getting but I don’t know yet if it’s biased because many people I know are in tech. Changing the name is not a huge setback for the foreseeable future until there’s brand recognition. Thanks for the feedback.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    it's fair to point out that they're different markets, but how many words do you want your potential customers to have type into Google in order to give you money?you're never going to out-seo the Ethernet capture tool Wireshark, so "Wireshark tool wire Ethernet" isn't going to be any better than trying to search for Wireshark. but I feel you. naming things is hard, even outside of computer science. my friend has a zero knowledge password entry system and we've sat and just talked about names for hours and hours and gone back and forth. anyway, my two cents is change the name to something that's less impossible to SEO better than. you want your users to find you and "Wireshark" just seems like a difficult name for a product to compete against, especially given all the other animals in the sea. wirefish doesn't seem particularly claimed.

bastard_op 2y ago

South Park said it best about the handyman, at least some media gets where we're at.

stn8188 2y ago

All the theories about DIY culture are interesting and maybe contribute some to the conclusion, but I think it's a lot more about material costs. Lots of things are back down from the crazy prices around COVID, but some things stayed high. A few examples I just dug through my emails for: - 5 gal Drylok waterproofing paint went from $104 in Jan. 2020 to $143 last week - 2x6x12' lumber: $9.57 in May 2019 to $12.22 now - 1/2" 4x8 of drywall was $9.57 in May of '18, $13.98 now Of course prices can be expected to go up in 5 years, but personally we've deferred a bunch of projects waiting for prices to stabilize a bit.

SkyPuncher 2y ago
Lumber prices kill nearly every DIY project I want to do. Nearly every project I want to do turns into “well, that’s not cheap. Might as well just contract it out - after I save for it”

wrp 2y ago

Lord Finchley tried to mend the Electric Light Himself. It struck him dead: And serve him right! It is the business of the wealthy man To give employment to the artisan. --Hilaire Belloc