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When I was a teenageer a school counselor incorrectly perceived me to be in a crisis and had me sent to 72 hour hold (which stays on certain records for quite a

When I was a teenageer a school counselor incorrectly perceived me to be in a crisis and had me sent to 72 hour hold (which stays on certain records for quite a while and can be incredibly disruptive, but that's besides the point) - for some reason I was sent almost 40 miles away in another county in a city I'd never been. The hospital doctors took one look at me and realized I didn't belong there, but to do a discharge apparently is a pretty lengthy process once this process is initiated - almost 20 hours later (again, being held completely against my will for no reason) they released me. I asked them where I was supposed to go and if I could call my dad. They said no, but they gave me two (2) bus tokens, which wasn't enough to get back where my car was parked at the school, plus I had no idea how to use the bus system in that county, and didn't have my glasses, phone, or wallet. I really don't know how long it took or how I made it, but many many hours later I made it back to my car. I had to beg for money and walk the last several miles once I recognized finally where I was. It really sucked, and ever since then I've had a great deal of sympathy for people that are churned through this terrible system and spit right back out with no dignity whatsoever, let alone empathy. This incident disrupted my life irreversibly (ended up missing tests and having to do a medical withdrawal from school, lost scholarships, etc) and derailed a lot of things I had wanted to do for many, many years. The hospital/medical care industrial complex doesn't optimize for empathy. They're just trying to get the bodies through as quickly as possible.

FireBeyond 2y ago
> in a crisis and had me sent to 72 hour hold Oftentimes it's not even that, or can go to the opposite extreme. It can be "or until evaluated by a psychiatrist or MHP". I'm a paramedic in Washington. The biggest example of this I remember was a 14yo, intentional pharma overdose. We brought her in, "invol". Four and a half hours later, call goes out, same address, 14 year old girl, overdose. We checked with dispatch, was there a glitch? Nope. Psychiatrist had spoken to her, determined she was "no threat to herself". Parents drove her home, and within fifteen minutes she'd locked herself in the bathroom again, and taken more of the same meds. Was furious. Between the psychiatrist, parents not locking up the meds, hell, the ER, she probably still had drugs in her system. "Maybe hold on to her for more than four hours this time." Also, tangentially, if EMS wants to transport you involuntarily, we actually need Law Enforcement involvement - they don't even necessarily need to talk to the patient, but they do need to complete the paperwork that takes them into custody, which they then "assign" to us. EMS generally has no power to treat you against your will (however, if you are actively a threat to yourself, we can act on that, usually restraint and sedation. Or there is 'implied consent' where if you lose the ability to effectively consent, the law assumes that a rational person would want aid to be rendered).
- JohnMakin 2y ago
  I’m aware of a lot of this dynamic and have written extensively about it elsewhere - in this case though, especially looking back, it was ridiculous. I was extremely stressed about finals and didnt know what to do. Was borderline homeless and struggling to support myself. I had never seen a counselor or therapist before and was mildly depressed. she asked me a few leading questions like “how would you feel if you failed your finals and dropped out?” and I said something along the lines of “I guess I’d feel suicidal.” then, “do you feel suicidal now?” and I said I wasn’t sure. Then she goes, “so you cant tell me if you go home right now, you cant guarantee me you won’t kill yourself?” now at this point I had zero ideation even, no plan, no intentions of killing myself, but being a pedantic dork studying philosophy I said I wasn’t sure about that, because I really wasn’t sure what to say. 10 minutes later a cop shows up, puts me in handcuffs, parades me off campus in them and people I knew saw it. I had absolutely no clue what was going on and had to sign papers I didn’t want to sign and when I protested the answer was basically “you can come voluntarily or with force, your choice.” It ended up doing far more harm than good for me. I know physicians personally that will often throw people into 72 hour holds in the ER “just to be safe,” either not understanding or caring the long term consequences of being put in an involuntary hold. These same physicians have told me she did the “right” thing but anyone with common sense and experience could figure out very quickly I was not a danger to anyone. I was just trying to find some help because I was overwhelmed.
  - FireBeyond 2y ago
    I am very sorry for your experience - that's entirely horrible. I'm the same as you, too, and pondering the deeper, thinking answers. That whole process sounds messed up. I would say over 99% (and that's not an exaggeration, but literal) of our invol patients do not have police involved (other than to submit paperwork to the hospital), let alone cuffs. Our EMS protocols DO require soft restraints during transport, but we generally make a point of being apologetic about it, putting them on at the last moment and that we will take them off ASAP (essentially once the ambulance is in Park). Even this is only because, unfortunately, some of those patients have attempted to exit a moving ambulance, sometimes at freeway speeds. I'm curious what papers were put in front of you, though, as the whole point of the involuntary custody process is that your acknowledgement is not necessary (at that point - after the mental health hold hearing, in front of a judge - you are asked to acknowledge/sign, but not required).
aidenn0 2y ago
> The hospital/medical care industrial complex doesn't optimize for empathy. They're just trying to get the bodies through as quickly as possible. That must be why health care is so affordable (/s)
- BartjeD 2y ago
  Profitable
romwell 2y ago
>When I was a teenageer a school counselor incorrectly perceived me to be in a crisis and had me sent to 72 hour hold How could they do that without notifying your parents and telling them exactly where you've been sent to, and what they should do?! How could they've done that without giving the hospital your parents' contact info? How could the hospital accept you without requesting it, given that you were sent from school, where you have limited rights because they have the responsibility for your well-being? How could have they discharged without allowing you to contact your family yourself? This should be grounds for a civil lawsuit, if not criminal prosecution. I am not a lawyer, but I really hope that anyone reading this would contact one if they end in a situation like that. >They're just trying to get the bodies through as quickly as possible. I don't think taking 30 seconds over those 20 hours to contact your family would've slowed them down any. This is not about efficiency. They should not be allowed to operate.
- JohnMakin 2y ago
  I was an adult and had been independent since 17. I do not recall the hospital ever asking me for contact info. I had nothing on me except my keys, no id. and frankly by the time I had got there in cuffs and realized what was happening was not in a great mood to cooperate, either. I know for a fact the school never contacted my emergency contacts but there wasn’t really anyone to contact to begin with so I don’t fault them for that. What should have happened was I referred to a school therapist or actual doctor. To explain further what this place was like - it was the county mental facility at a large hospital. imagine a toned down version nurse ratchet kind of setting, people defecating on themselves, screaming, people in straight jackets. and then me, a slightly disheveled kid who was stressed about finals. they wanted me out of there immediately once they realized what was going on because they were already full. then when they process the paper work you get shuffled to a front desk behind a window who just wants you out of their sight ASAP. I remember I had to actually argue for the bus tokens and the woman seemed exasperated with even that.
  - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
    > shuffled to a front desk behind a window who just wants you out of their sight ASAP That’s their problem, especially if they deal with proper mental issues, you can’t just dump these kind of people on the street.
m463 2y ago
> didn't have my glasses, phone, or wallet. > I made it back to my car and although no glasses or license, did you have keys? could you drive?
- JohnMakin 2y ago
  All I had was my keys. I left my wallet and glasses in my car when I went to school that day, and in those days not everyone carried a cell phone

FireBeyond 2y ago

> in a crisis and had me sent to 72 hour hold Oftentimes it's not even that, or can go to the opposite extreme. It can be "or until evaluated by a psychiatrist or MHP". I'm a paramedic in Washington. The biggest example of this I remember was a 14yo, intentional pharma overdose. We brought her in, "invol". Four and a half hours later, call goes out, same address, 14 year old girl, overdose. We checked with dispatch, was there a glitch? Nope. Psychiatrist had spoken to her, determined she was "no threat to herself". Parents drove her home, and within fifteen minutes she'd locked herself in the bathroom again, and taken more of the same meds. Was furious. Between the psychiatrist, parents not locking up the meds, hell, the ER, she probably still had drugs in her system. "Maybe hold on to her for more than four hours this time." Also, tangentially, if EMS wants to transport you involuntarily, we actually need Law Enforcement involvement - they don't even necessarily need to talk to the patient, but they do need to complete the paperwork that takes them into custody, which they then "assign" to us. EMS generally has no power to treat you against your will (however, if you are actively a threat to yourself, we can act on that, usually restraint and sedation. Or there is 'implied consent' where if you lose the ability to effectively consent, the law assumes that a rational person would want aid to be rendered).

JohnMakin 2y ago
I’m aware of a lot of this dynamic and have written extensively about it elsewhere - in this case though, especially looking back, it was ridiculous. I was extremely stressed about finals and didnt know what to do. Was borderline homeless and struggling to support myself. I had never seen a counselor or therapist before and was mildly depressed. she asked me a few leading questions like “how would you feel if you failed your finals and dropped out?” and I said something along the lines of “I guess I’d feel suicidal.” then, “do you feel suicidal now?” and I said I wasn’t sure. Then she goes, “so you cant tell me if you go home right now, you cant guarantee me you won’t kill yourself?” now at this point I had zero ideation even, no plan, no intentions of killing myself, but being a pedantic dork studying philosophy I said I wasn’t sure about that, because I really wasn’t sure what to say. 10 minutes later a cop shows up, puts me in handcuffs, parades me off campus in them and people I knew saw it. I had absolutely no clue what was going on and had to sign papers I didn’t want to sign and when I protested the answer was basically “you can come voluntarily or with force, your choice.” It ended up doing far more harm than good for me. I know physicians personally that will often throw people into 72 hour holds in the ER “just to be safe,” either not understanding or caring the long term consequences of being put in an involuntary hold. These same physicians have told me she did the “right” thing but anyone with common sense and experience could figure out very quickly I was not a danger to anyone. I was just trying to find some help because I was overwhelmed.
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  I am very sorry for your experience - that's entirely horrible. I'm the same as you, too, and pondering the deeper, thinking answers. That whole process sounds messed up. I would say over 99% (and that's not an exaggeration, but literal) of our invol patients do not have police involved (other than to submit paperwork to the hospital), let alone cuffs. Our EMS protocols DO require soft restraints during transport, but we generally make a point of being apologetic about it, putting them on at the last moment and that we will take them off ASAP (essentially once the ambulance is in Park). Even this is only because, unfortunately, some of those patients have attempted to exit a moving ambulance, sometimes at freeway speeds. I'm curious what papers were put in front of you, though, as the whole point of the involuntary custody process is that your acknowledgement is not necessary (at that point - after the mental health hold hearing, in front of a judge - you are asked to acknowledge/sign, but not required).

aidenn0 2y ago

> The hospital/medical care industrial complex doesn't optimize for empathy. They're just trying to get the bodies through as quickly as possible. That must be why health care is so affordable (/s)

BartjeD 2y ago
Profitable

romwell 2y ago

>When I was a teenageer a school counselor incorrectly perceived me to be in a crisis and had me sent to 72 hour hold How could they do that without notifying your parents and telling them exactly where you've been sent to, and what they should do?! How could they've done that without giving the hospital your parents' contact info? How could the hospital accept you without requesting it, given that you were sent from school, where you have limited rights because they have the responsibility for your well-being? How could have they discharged without allowing you to contact your family yourself? This should be grounds for a civil lawsuit, if not criminal prosecution. I am not a lawyer, but I really hope that anyone reading this would contact one if they end in a situation like that. >They're just trying to get the bodies through as quickly as possible. I don't think taking 30 seconds over those 20 hours to contact your family would've slowed them down any. This is not about efficiency. They should not be allowed to operate.

JohnMakin 2y ago
I was an adult and had been independent since 17. I do not recall the hospital ever asking me for contact info. I had nothing on me except my keys, no id. and frankly by the time I had got there in cuffs and realized what was happening was not in a great mood to cooperate, either. I know for a fact the school never contacted my emergency contacts but there wasn’t really anyone to contact to begin with so I don’t fault them for that. What should have happened was I referred to a school therapist or actual doctor. To explain further what this place was like - it was the county mental facility at a large hospital. imagine a toned down version nurse ratchet kind of setting, people defecating on themselves, screaming, people in straight jackets. and then me, a slightly disheveled kid who was stressed about finals. they wanted me out of there immediately once they realized what was going on because they were already full. then when they process the paper work you get shuffled to a front desk behind a window who just wants you out of their sight ASAP. I remember I had to actually argue for the bus tokens and the woman seemed exasperated with even that.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  > shuffled to a front desk behind a window who just wants you out of their sight ASAP That’s their problem, especially if they deal with proper mental issues, you can’t just dump these kind of people on the street.

m463 2y ago

> didn't have my glasses, phone, or wallet. > I made it back to my car and although no glasses or license, did you have keys? could you drive?

JohnMakin 2y ago
All I had was my keys. I left my wallet and glasses in my car when I went to school that day, and in those days not everyone carried a cell phone