4 ms·

Just as a data point on the Tomato firmware. I've been running it for about 2 years now, on two different hardware devices. It hangs every once in a while, the

by jwr 14y ago

Just as a data point on the Tomato firmware. I've been running it for about 2 years now, on two different hardware devices. It hangs every once in a while, the intervals range from several days to several weeks. I determined the culprit is QoS: if I disable all QoS, the device will run fine for months. Enabling it shortens the uptime to days or weeks at most. Since I know this happens reproducibly on two different devices, I am certain it is the software. And unfortunately without QoS the Tomato firmware loses much of its appeal. Unfortunately this is one of those "unreportable" bugs: there is no way to properly report it, much less have it debugged by original developers.

speleding 14y ago
QoS in your router is only interesting if bandwidth is constrained in your last mile, otherwise it just adds complexity. I would think that QoS in home routers is only a transitional technology for the next few years while not everyone has a large enough pipe yet. Can you imagine your electricity or water outlet at home being constrained like bandwidth is? Those issues were solved a century ago, they'll get fixed for bandwidth too within our lifetime.
- icebraining 14y ago
  I can imagine, since my electricity outlet at home is constrained like bandwidth. We pay a fixed monthly fee that is proportional to the load capacity, so choosing a lower value and watching what I use saves me money. In any case, I'm not sure if we'll ever have a large enough pipe for everyone; our current pipes are more than enough for our needs five years ago, but our needs grew, and will in the future.
- nitid_name 14y ago
  I doubt water usage per capita has changed drastically in the last 20 years. Sure, there were drops from low flow toilets, low flow shower heads, and HE washing machines, and I'm sure there's some variability to usage based on seasonal variance from year to year, but the average US household uses about 350 gallons a day. I don't have access to historical data, but I'd wager that it hasn't changed more than 25% in the last decade or two. Power has remained relatively constant at about 1.3MWh per capita. In the last thirty years, it has grown only 300KWh. Internet bandwidth, on the other hand, went from 9.6-14.4kbit/s modems in fax machines in the 80s to 28.8-56.6kbit/s modems in the 90s to the megabit/s range in the 00s to the 15-100Mbps you can get in a residence today. If the bandwidth issue is to get solved, the growth in consumption will need to peak.
  - jaylevitt 14y ago
    Of course you have access to historical data; you're on the Internet! And you're right - it's estimated to have dropped 13-15% in the past 30 years. http://www.awwa.org/files/Resources/Waterwiser/JAW0211rockaway.pdf http://www.awwa.org/files/Resources/Waterwiser/JAW0211rockaw...
  - speleding 14y ago
    Your comparing the last few decades of internet use with the last few decades of water use, a fairer comparison would be the first few decades of water use with the the first few decades of internet use. More relevant to the point though, would be to compare it with the growth in internet usage a decade or two from now: as technologies mature it would would seem reasonable to expect that the growth tails off and QoS on the internet last mile will become just as useful as QoS on water pipes.
deelowe 14y ago
I've been running tomato for probably 4 years and never had it hang (on 3 wrt54g routers I'll be replacing soon)
AncientPC 14y ago
Here's my data point to counter your data point. I've been running Tomato and Tomato USB with QoS enabled for 4+ years. Routers were usually WRT54G or compatible Asus models installed into multiple homes or SOHO businesses. Tomato has been rock solid for me over that time period. Uptime was months or years depending on how often the router was moved or power went out. However I have had a few issues with Tomato USB, which is a 3rd party fork. Switching back to original Tomato fixed my problems.

by jwr 14y ago

speleding 14y ago

QoS in your router is only interesting if bandwidth is constrained in your last mile, otherwise it just adds complexity. I would think that QoS in home routers is only a transitional technology for the next few years while not everyone has a large enough pipe yet. Can you imagine your electricity or water outlet at home being constrained like bandwidth is? Those issues were solved a century ago, they'll get fixed for bandwidth too within our lifetime.

icebraining 14y ago
I can imagine, since my electricity outlet at home is constrained like bandwidth. We pay a fixed monthly fee that is proportional to the load capacity, so choosing a lower value and watching what I use saves me money. In any case, I'm not sure if we'll ever have a large enough pipe for everyone; our current pipes are more than enough for our needs five years ago, but our needs grew, and will in the future.
nitid_name 14y ago
I doubt water usage per capita has changed drastically in the last 20 years. Sure, there were drops from low flow toilets, low flow shower heads, and HE washing machines, and I'm sure there's some variability to usage based on seasonal variance from year to year, but the average US household uses about 350 gallons a day. I don't have access to historical data, but I'd wager that it hasn't changed more than 25% in the last decade or two. Power has remained relatively constant at about 1.3MWh per capita. In the last thirty years, it has grown only 300KWh. Internet bandwidth, on the other hand, went from 9.6-14.4kbit/s modems in fax machines in the 80s to 28.8-56.6kbit/s modems in the 90s to the megabit/s range in the 00s to the 15-100Mbps you can get in a residence today. If the bandwidth issue is to get solved, the growth in consumption will need to peak.
- jaylevitt 14y ago
  Of course you have access to historical data; you're on the Internet! And you're right - it's estimated to have dropped 13-15% in the past 30 years. http://www.awwa.org/files/Resources/Waterwiser/JAW0211rockaway.pdf http://www.awwa.org/files/Resources/Waterwiser/JAW0211rockaw...
- speleding 14y ago
  Your comparing the last few decades of internet use with the last few decades of water use, a fairer comparison would be the first few decades of water use with the the first few decades of internet use. More relevant to the point though, would be to compare it with the growth in internet usage a decade or two from now: as technologies mature it would would seem reasonable to expect that the growth tails off and QoS on the internet last mile will become just as useful as QoS on water pipes.

deelowe 14y ago

I've been running tomato for probably 4 years and never had it hang (on 3 wrt54g routers I'll be replacing soon)

AncientPC 14y ago

Here's my data point to counter your data point. I've been running Tomato and Tomato USB with QoS enabled for 4+ years. Routers were usually WRT54G or compatible Asus models installed into multiple homes or SOHO businesses. Tomato has been rock solid for me over that time period. Uptime was months or years depending on how often the router was moved or power went out. However I have had a few issues with Tomato USB, which is a 3rd party fork. Switching back to original Tomato fixed my problems.