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One thing that bums me out about this is the idea that figuring this kind of thing out is what "designers" do. As if there is some special skillset and art to d

by ajkjk 2y ago

One thing that bums me out about this is the idea that figuring this kind of thing out is what "designers" do. As if there is some special skillset and art to design that a special group of people, designers, do, which we should take seriously. No, this is just what non-idiots do. Any non-idiot would look at this UI and think: this is terrible.

cdbyr 2y ago
One nice thing about designers is their tie-breaking ability for non-designers. Design, being something we all think we’re right about, is easy to lose lots of time going back and forth on with non-specialists, while it’s much faster to send to a pro. But I generally agree with you, I think the world would be better if everyone was more thoughtful about this sort of thing.
- mulmen 2y ago
  How do you justify all the bad UIs though? Is just making a decision, any decision, somehow better than making a good one?
jeroenhd 2y ago
Looking at the UI, I see consistently applied patterns in a pretty normalised layout. I don't know how to use any of the controls, but that's because I don't know how to steer a warship, not because the UI is bad. Had I known what "gang" means in this context, the problem would've been clear from the very first screenshot. Yes, the UI is ugly as sin, but it doesn't need to be pretty. A barely trained 18 year old on months of sleep deprivation couldn't figure this out, but that's an impossible standard to design for. The entire ship was designed to use computer aided navigation anyway, but apparently that's being disabled by default.
moring 2y ago
Are the people who designed this UI idiots? If no, then that contradicts your argument. Non-designers obviously do get it wrong. If yes, your argument has become a "no true scotsman" -- it no longer makes a statement about the capability of anyone, but simply defines "idiot" as people who get the UI wrong. Besides that, hindsight is 20/20. Was the UI obviously terrible before the accident happened?
- ajkjk 2y ago
  Yes they are idiots. Well more likely they were cogs in a dysfunctional bureaucracy that is not allowed to do good work because it doesn't allow common sense to drive decision making. So the 'idiot' here is an organization, maybe, and not a person. Yes, the UI was obviously terrible before the accident happened. My first thought when I saw the picture was, wow, that's terrible. You seem to be one of those people who doesn't believe that things can have inherent quality, or that anyone can perceive that quality. It's a sort of nihilism about the idea of excellence. But people do this everyday. It's easy. It's a natural impulse that most humans have when you interact with anything: this is shitty, this isn't shitty. So bad design is when something is made that's shitty and doesn't have to be. And if a large well-funded corporation makes something shitty, that's pathetic. But it happens all the time because organisations and leaders are incompetent.
  - moring 2y ago
    > Yes they are idiots. Well more likely they were cogs in a dysfunctional bureaucracy that is not allowed to do good work because it doesn't allow common sense to drive decision making. So the 'idiot' here is an organization, maybe, and not a person. As I said, that turns your argument around: They did not make a bad UI because they are idiots, but rather they are idiots because they made a bad UI. This gives you zero insight to prevent future accidents. > Yes, the UI was obviously terrible before the accident happened. My first thought when I saw the picture was, wow, that's terrible. You saw that picture after you already knew that an accident happened. The interesting question is whether your conclusion would have been the same if you saw it without knowing about the accident. I really suggest that you have a look at the CAST handbook, because every single of your arguments gets taken apart there: http://sunnyday.mit.edu/CAST-Handbook.pdf http://sunnyday.mit.edu/CAST-Handbook.pdf (also posted in another sub-thread, but this whole HN discussion shows that still too few people know about it)
    - ajkjk 2y ago
      Jesus christ do you think that I'm so small-minded that I'm saying the UI is bad because I biased by knowing the accident happened already? and that I didn't realize I was doing it? No I thought it was shit instantly because I've played video games my whole life and if I played a game that had that UI for steering I'd uninstall it. You could at least assume other people are intelligent when you're talking to them.

by ajkjk 2y ago

cdbyr 2y ago

One nice thing about designers is their tie-breaking ability for non-designers. Design, being something we all think we’re right about, is easy to lose lots of time going back and forth on with non-specialists, while it’s much faster to send to a pro. But I generally agree with you, I think the world would be better if everyone was more thoughtful about this sort of thing.

mulmen 2y ago
How do you justify all the bad UIs though? Is just making a decision, any decision, somehow better than making a good one?

jeroenhd 2y ago

Looking at the UI, I see consistently applied patterns in a pretty normalised layout. I don't know how to use any of the controls, but that's because I don't know how to steer a warship, not because the UI is bad. Had I known what "gang" means in this context, the problem would've been clear from the very first screenshot. Yes, the UI is ugly as sin, but it doesn't need to be pretty. A barely trained 18 year old on months of sleep deprivation couldn't figure this out, but that's an impossible standard to design for. The entire ship was designed to use computer aided navigation anyway, but apparently that's being disabled by default.

moring 2y ago

Are the people who designed this UI idiots? If no, then that contradicts your argument. Non-designers obviously do get it wrong. If yes, your argument has become a "no true scotsman" -- it no longer makes a statement about the capability of anyone, but simply defines "idiot" as people who get the UI wrong. Besides that, hindsight is 20/20. Was the UI obviously terrible before the accident happened?

ajkjk 2y ago
Yes they are idiots. Well more likely they were cogs in a dysfunctional bureaucracy that is not allowed to do good work because it doesn't allow common sense to drive decision making. So the 'idiot' here is an organization, maybe, and not a person. Yes, the UI was obviously terrible before the accident happened. My first thought when I saw the picture was, wow, that's terrible. You seem to be one of those people who doesn't believe that things can have inherent quality, or that anyone can perceive that quality. It's a sort of nihilism about the idea of excellence. But people do this everyday. It's easy. It's a natural impulse that most humans have when you interact with anything: this is shitty, this isn't shitty. So bad design is when something is made that's shitty and doesn't have to be. And if a large well-funded corporation makes something shitty, that's pathetic. But it happens all the time because organisations and leaders are incompetent.
- moring 2y ago
  > Yes they are idiots. Well more likely they were cogs in a dysfunctional bureaucracy that is not allowed to do good work because it doesn't allow common sense to drive decision making. So the 'idiot' here is an organization, maybe, and not a person. As I said, that turns your argument around: They did not make a bad UI because they are idiots, but rather they are idiots because they made a bad UI. This gives you zero insight to prevent future accidents. > Yes, the UI was obviously terrible before the accident happened. My first thought when I saw the picture was, wow, that's terrible. You saw that picture after you already knew that an accident happened. The interesting question is whether your conclusion would have been the same if you saw it without knowing about the accident. I really suggest that you have a look at the CAST handbook, because every single of your arguments gets taken apart there: http://sunnyday.mit.edu/CAST-Handbook.pdf http://sunnyday.mit.edu/CAST-Handbook.pdf (also posted in another sub-thread, but this whole HN discussion shows that still too few people know about it)
  - ajkjk 2y ago
    Jesus christ do you think that I'm so small-minded that I'm saying the UI is bad because I biased by knowing the accident happened already? and that I didn't realize I was doing it? No I thought it was shit instantly because I've played video games my whole life and if I played a game that had that UI for steering I'd uninstall it. You could at least assume other people are intelligent when you're talking to them.