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I don't agree, from the perspective of someone who has driven ships, stood console watches on complex combat direction systems, and regularly flies flight simul

by jki275 2y ago

I don't agree, from the perspective of someone who has driven ships, stood console watches on complex combat direction systems, and regularly flies flight simulators for fun. The UI for driving a vehicle needs to be simple and intuitive. Full Stop. There is absolutely a place for complex displays. There were 14 people on the bridge the day the McCain had its collision. Any number of them can monitor complex screens with tons of information. The young Sailor driving the ship needs to know where his rudder sits and what RPM his engines are turning. In fact, there are two of them, and the traditional method is that one drives and monitors the rudder, and one runs the engines. They don't need to worry about complex situations, the helm needs to know the conning officer ordered 5 degrees right rudder, they ordered 5 degrees right rudder with the wheel in front of them, and the screen or indicator in front of them indicates the rudder is right 5 degrees. Similarly, Lee Helm needs to know the conning officer ordered turns for all ahead full, they shifted the great big throttle handles to the all ahead full position, and both engines indicate all head full. They don't need to know about engine temperatures, synchro and servo status, set and drift, winds, etc. They need to drive the damn ship in the manner they are directed to drive the ship. There were 12 other people on that bridge who could handle all of those things that matter to them. Helm and Lee Helm need to drive the ship.

krisoft 2y ago
It sounds like you are knowledgeable about this stuff so if I don’t mind you asking: Why is it a good idea to use a full human to turn a wheel? The way I understand what you are saying is that the conning officer shouts “5 degrees right rudder” and some dude listens to that and puts the rudder 5 degrees right. I understand that this makes sense if turning the wheel takes physical force. There is someone who provides the smarts which way to turn it, and someone who provides the raw power to do it. But if it requires no excertion to do it, didn’t we just made a shitty voice interface for the conning officer? With all the associated manning requirement and potential for mishearing orders, and potential for confusion? Wouldn’t it make more sense for the conning officer to tap in their desired rudder on the interface themselves?
- m2fkxy 2y ago
  the conning officer often has tons of other stuff to deal with that require them not to be distracted by having to change course themselves.
  - krisoft 2y ago
    So do airplane pilots and you don’t see them shouting yoke orders to a sub-pilot. This is a practice which I think made sense with older tech where one had to put some thinking into the execution of the steering. (How much to twist the control to achieve 5 degree? Oops a bit overshot, twisting back. Now hold it steady! That kind of thing.) but now that you just peck at a touch screen the actual task is taken over by a servo motor from the sailor. But because the servo doesn’t have ears to hear the command we keep a whole human employed to do the “hear command, shout, peck, shout” loop. That and institutional inertia. If we were designing navy ships for the first time today we would surely not do it like this.
    - m2fkxy 2y ago
      most complex and/or commercial aircraft do share the workload between a pilot-flying, and a pilot-non-flying—in addition to the captain & FO hierarchy you are probably aware of.
    - jki275 2y ago
      I think you will definitely hear the pilot and copilot communicating, and they split up tasking between them -- one flies and one monitors equipment and makes system entries. They're also way way more qualified and educated than SN Timmy who got a few hours of training on how to do his job. That loop is pretty valuable on the bridge, because it's not just one person driving in a bubble. Having those orders vocalized so everyone hears them and everyone knows what's happening is pretty valuable. UNREP is a very difficult and stressful kind of evolution, and so is driving during flight operations. Things need to be done perfectly and there are a LOT of variables. We design new ships all the time, and they still generally stick to these ways. CRM isn't a thing only in aircraft.
- 2y ago

by jki275 2y ago

krisoft 2y ago

It sounds like you are knowledgeable about this stuff so if I don’t mind you asking: Why is it a good idea to use a full human to turn a wheel? The way I understand what you are saying is that the conning officer shouts “5 degrees right rudder” and some dude listens to that and puts the rudder 5 degrees right. I understand that this makes sense if turning the wheel takes physical force. There is someone who provides the smarts which way to turn it, and someone who provides the raw power to do it. But if it requires no excertion to do it, didn’t we just made a shitty voice interface for the conning officer? With all the associated manning requirement and potential for mishearing orders, and potential for confusion? Wouldn’t it make more sense for the conning officer to tap in their desired rudder on the interface themselves?

m2fkxy 2y ago
the conning officer often has tons of other stuff to deal with that require them not to be distracted by having to change course themselves.
- krisoft 2y ago
  So do airplane pilots and you don’t see them shouting yoke orders to a sub-pilot. This is a practice which I think made sense with older tech where one had to put some thinking into the execution of the steering. (How much to twist the control to achieve 5 degree? Oops a bit overshot, twisting back. Now hold it steady! That kind of thing.) but now that you just peck at a touch screen the actual task is taken over by a servo motor from the sailor. But because the servo doesn’t have ears to hear the command we keep a whole human employed to do the “hear command, shout, peck, shout” loop. That and institutional inertia. If we were designing navy ships for the first time today we would surely not do it like this.
  - m2fkxy 2y ago
    most complex and/or commercial aircraft do share the workload between a pilot-flying, and a pilot-non-flying—in addition to the captain & FO hierarchy you are probably aware of.
  - jki275 2y ago
    I think you will definitely hear the pilot and copilot communicating, and they split up tasking between them -- one flies and one monitors equipment and makes system entries. They're also way way more qualified and educated than SN Timmy who got a few hours of training on how to do his job. That loop is pretty valuable on the bridge, because it's not just one person driving in a bubble. Having those orders vocalized so everyone hears them and everyone knows what's happening is pretty valuable. UNREP is a very difficult and stressful kind of evolution, and so is driving during flight operations. Things need to be done perfectly and there are a LOT of variables. We design new ships all the time, and they still generally stick to these ways. CRM isn't a thing only in aircraft.
2y ago