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The Navy has the stupidest possible ideas of sleep hygiene, boiling down to "it sucked for me so it should suck for the next guy, too". I had friends in departm

The Navy has the stupidest possible ideas of sleep hygiene, boiling down to "it sucked for me so it should suck for the next guy, too". I had friends in departments who worked 6 hours on, 6 hours off, 6 hours on, 6 hours off repeatedly. In that pattern you never get a solid 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep, ever. Yeah, it's possible that emergencies will arise where you have to work 24-48-more hours straight without relief because the ship is under attack, or on fire, or barely afloat. That's not a reason to try to kill sailors with sleep deprivation the rest of the time.

JoshTriplett 2y ago
> The Navy has the stupidest possible ideas of sleep hygiene, boiling down to "it sucked for me so it should suck for the next guy, too". See also: medicine.
- kstrauser 2y ago
  Definitely. Modern residency was literally shaped by a coke addict.
sandworm101 2y ago
Six and six is fine, if you actually do it. In reality, junior officers do six on watch, six on a computer doing paperwork, six back on watch, a couple hours eating/bathing/cleaning, then perhaps get five of actual sleep each day.
- kstrauser 2y ago
  It’s not. You can’t ever have a full night’s rest. That’s not sustainable.
  - sandworm101 2y ago
    Navies have been doing some version of six and six for centuries. It isn't total bunk.
    - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
      Doing something stupid for a long time doesn't make it a good idea.
      - sandworm101 2y ago
        Nor is doing 8-8-8 or 12-12 shifts. There are only so many people on a boat and they all need to be working about 50% of the time, plus all-hands stuff where nobody sleeps.
        kstrauser 2y ago
        The risk of that logic is that 1-1 shifts would have 50% of the ship working at a time, although most of them would die after a week or so. 1-1 is clearly absurd. So is 2-2. And 3-3. I'm convinced 6-6 is also biologically unsustainable for most people, although 6 hours is long enough that 1) some people are perfectly fine with it, and 2) most other people can hack it for at least a while before incipient mental breakdown.
  - aaronmdjones 2y ago
    A full night's rest isn't 8 hours, and the sleep doesn't have to be accumulated in one block. This is a myth that persisted after the invention of street lighting. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783
    - kstrauser 2y ago
      For some people. Sleep monitors confirm that I consistently sleep from 7 to 8 hours straight through per night unless something external disturbs me. That's my own natural sleep pattern. I cannot function on fewer contiguous hours long-term. I know. I've been through it several times in life and it was universally horrible. Some people function best with several shorter sleep periods. Other people function best with 1 longer one. The former can work just fine with a 12-12 schedule. The latter cannot maintain performance with a 6-6 schedule.
  - bumby 2y ago
    A sleep cycle is roughly 90 minutes. Is there evidence that ~5 continuous cycles is any better/worse than 5 non-continuous ones?
- psunavy03 2y ago
  As a former aviator JO . . . you're drinking the Kool-Aid. You didn't need to do that, you just did it.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
They need to be well-rested in case those emergency situations occur; to me that 6 hour schedule feels like it's intended to keep people in a constant state of being stressed / tired. Weird sadism in the military. That said, that schedule looks like they only have the people (or the facilities) to run two shifts, instead of three (8 hours on, 16 hours off) or more shifts.
- kstrauser 2y ago
  My department did basically 12+12. The work day was long (with meal breaks), but then you had a few hours to hang out, write letters, read, and sleep for 8 hours. I’d infinitely rather do 12+12 than 6+6.
- psunavy03 2y ago
  It's not military "weird sadism," it's meatheadedness in some areas of the military. The aviation communities had this suitcased 40+ years ago with mandatory crew rest requirements that can only be broken in legitimate combat.
bumby 2y ago
It's my understanding that our ideas of eight hours of continuous sleep window may be an artifact of the industrial revolution and electrification. Meaning it may not be ideal for us, but just the assumption that we've become accustom to in modern times. There are lots of old writing (Ben Franklin etc.) that refer to their "second sleep" ie, they sleep for a few hours, get up and do some work, and then go back to sleep for a few hours more. If anyone has more concrete information on this, I'd be interested.
- kstrauser 2y ago
  That's a valid sleep mode for some people. My wife wakes up in the middle of the night, reads for a bit, then goes back to sleep. That works for her. I absolutely cannot do this. When I fall asleep, I stay asleep for 7-8 hours and only then wake up. In the times where I've been unable to get that uninterrupted sleep. In the case of the Navy, I can guarantee that 6+6 shifts didn't come about because of advanced sleep research, but because "it was good enough for me and now it's good enough for them".
  - bumby 2y ago
    I don't know it's origination, but I suspect the 6+6 was probably a result of having the ability to split operations of a 24 hour day into even crews (not much different than the civilian 8 hour allowing factory work to be split into 3 shifts). How they rationalize it after the fact is a different story.

JoshTriplett 2y ago

> The Navy has the stupidest possible ideas of sleep hygiene, boiling down to "it sucked for me so it should suck for the next guy, too". See also: medicine.

kstrauser 2y ago
Definitely. Modern residency was literally shaped by a coke addict.

sandworm101 2y ago

Six and six is fine, if you actually do it. In reality, junior officers do six on watch, six on a computer doing paperwork, six back on watch, a couple hours eating/bathing/cleaning, then perhaps get five of actual sleep each day.

kstrauser 2y ago
It’s not. You can’t ever have a full night’s rest. That’s not sustainable.
- sandworm101 2y ago
  Navies have been doing some version of six and six for centuries. It isn't total bunk.
  - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
    Doing something stupid for a long time doesn't make it a good idea.
    - sandworm101 2y ago
      Nor is doing 8-8-8 or 12-12 shifts. There are only so many people on a boat and they all need to be working about 50% of the time, plus all-hands stuff where nobody sleeps.
      - kstrauser 2y ago
        The risk of that logic is that 1-1 shifts would have 50% of the ship working at a time, although most of them would die after a week or so. 1-1 is clearly absurd. So is 2-2. And 3-3. I'm convinced 6-6 is also biologically unsustainable for most people, although 6 hours is long enough that 1) some people are perfectly fine with it, and 2) most other people can hack it for at least a while before incipient mental breakdown.
- aaronmdjones 2y ago
  A full night's rest isn't 8 hours, and the sleep doesn't have to be accumulated in one block. This is a myth that persisted after the invention of street lighting. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16964783
  - kstrauser 2y ago
    For some people. Sleep monitors confirm that I consistently sleep from 7 to 8 hours straight through per night unless something external disturbs me. That's my own natural sleep pattern. I cannot function on fewer contiguous hours long-term. I know. I've been through it several times in life and it was universally horrible. Some people function best with several shorter sleep periods. Other people function best with 1 longer one. The former can work just fine with a 12-12 schedule. The latter cannot maintain performance with a 6-6 schedule.
- bumby 2y ago
  A sleep cycle is roughly 90 minutes. Is there evidence that ~5 continuous cycles is any better/worse than 5 non-continuous ones?
psunavy03 2y ago
As a former aviator JO . . . you're drinking the Kool-Aid. You didn't need to do that, you just did it.

Cthulhu_ 2y ago

They need to be well-rested in case those emergency situations occur; to me that 6 hour schedule feels like it's intended to keep people in a constant state of being stressed / tired. Weird sadism in the military. That said, that schedule looks like they only have the people (or the facilities) to run two shifts, instead of three (8 hours on, 16 hours off) or more shifts.

kstrauser 2y ago
My department did basically 12+12. The work day was long (with meal breaks), but then you had a few hours to hang out, write letters, read, and sleep for 8 hours. I’d infinitely rather do 12+12 than 6+6.
psunavy03 2y ago
It's not military "weird sadism," it's meatheadedness in some areas of the military. The aviation communities had this suitcased 40+ years ago with mandatory crew rest requirements that can only be broken in legitimate combat.

bumby 2y ago

It's my understanding that our ideas of eight hours of continuous sleep window may be an artifact of the industrial revolution and electrification. Meaning it may not be ideal for us, but just the assumption that we've become accustom to in modern times. There are lots of old writing (Ben Franklin etc.) that refer to their "second sleep" ie, they sleep for a few hours, get up and do some work, and then go back to sleep for a few hours more. If anyone has more concrete information on this, I'd be interested.

kstrauser 2y ago
That's a valid sleep mode for some people. My wife wakes up in the middle of the night, reads for a bit, then goes back to sleep. That works for her. I absolutely cannot do this. When I fall asleep, I stay asleep for 7-8 hours and only then wake up. In the times where I've been unable to get that uninterrupted sleep. In the case of the Navy, I can guarantee that 6+6 shifts didn't come about because of advanced sleep research, but because "it was good enough for me and now it's good enough for them".
- bumby 2y ago
  I don't know it's origination, but I suspect the 6+6 was probably a result of having the ability to split operations of a 24 hour day into even crews (not much different than the civilian 8 hour allowing factory work to be split into 3 shifts). How they rationalize it after the fact is a different story.