7 ms·

Been afraid of something like that: Mostly running Windows 7 Professional with latest patches from Microsoft. Had an HP Laptop with Windows 10 Home Edition wh

Been afraid of something like that: Mostly running Windows 7 Professional with latest patches from Microsoft. Had an HP Laptop with Windows 10 Home Edition where the hard disk failed. So, got another HP, with Windows 11 Home. I'm a traditional Windows user and am writing software in .NET, IIS, ASP.NET, SQL Server. My most important tools are Rexx for a scripting language and KEdit for my text editor. I don't want Windows to be more like a smartphone. Microsoft made a lot of changes from 10 to 11, and for my traditional usage made Windows too different to use. Bluntly I have to regard 11 as unacceptable for my traditional usage on 7 and 10 and am eager to replace 11 with 10. Sooooo, I'm ready to pull hair and scream trying to find a way to install a genuine, 100% authentic, dyed in the wool, DVD, SSD, SEO, whatever, I can use to install 10 on my new HP. HELP!!!!!

lhamil64 2y ago
I'm curious why you prefer Rexx as a scripting language on Windows over something like Python or even PowerShell. I use it quite a bit for work and find it pretty limiting. With a lack of built in libraries even some simple stuff like parsing JSON can be a huge pain.
- graycat 2y ago
  Why Rexx? (A) Used it for decades. (B) The latest Object Oriented Rexx has some nice things, e.g., SysFileTree to get a nice file of all the names in a directory tree. (C) Yup, I agree that could use more tools and not have to roll my own. (D) Sure, looked at PowerShell: Looks like it has some nice powerful features but a, uh, goofy syntax -- intend to do more, maybe a lot more, with it. (E) Lots of people are taking Python seriously, and for more than just a scripting language, e.g., maybe all the software for a significant Web site. Intend to devote a weekend to Python. One little thing I did recently with Rexx was take an email message, all in just text, that had a Web page, as a MIME (multi-media Internet Mail Extensions or some such) Part, get the MIME part with the HTML, fix the email '=' characters used for splitting long lines, replaced some uses of special characters, and did get a Web page that Firefox would read. Worked? Yup. Elegant? Nope.
  - PenguinCoder 2y ago
    Dang, I'd like a copy of that script. Eml parsing, even with powershell and Exchange modules, is painful.
wildzzz 2y ago
Here's some good news: your license for Windows 11 is probably good for Windows 10 as well. Grab a Windows 10 install media from Microsoft and do a clean install on the drive. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10ISO https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10I...
- jwrallie 2y ago
  Still there is only one year left of support if you do that.
  - graycat 2y ago
    I still get "security updates" for Windows 7 Professional and am unsure what the lack of "support" might mean for my business.
    - jborean93 2y ago
      Extended support ended in Jan 2020 and the paid ESU support ended in Jan 2023 [1]. Are you sure those updates aren't just defender/AV definition updates rather than actual OS updates? [1] - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/faq/extended-security-updates https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/faq/extended-sec...
      - graycat 2y ago
        Perhaps: "Defender" is what I've noticed.
        bravetraveler 2y ago
        Anti-virus definitions, not really exhaustive security maintenance. Defender is their AV. The firewall/kernel isn't included, for example How important that is, no idea! The firewall is probably passable but I generally don't know your risk profile. Applications and the rest of the system offer a lot of surface area
giancarlostoro 2y ago
I also do .NET but I went with Linux instead. Something Ubuntu based like POP OS or just plain any of the official Ubuntu flavors did the trick for me. Heck for fun I migrated a .NET 3.5 project thats been untouched for centuries all the way to the latest all on Linux, and it looks like it worked with barely any issues.
- graycat 2y ago
  Versions of Linux seem to have a lot of value and are real competition for all the versions of Windows. But I decided to concentrate on just one operating system and there picked Windows. Otherwise I want to concentrate on my needed software development, the inevitable system management, and, then most of all, the business itself. I'm guessing that, whatever frustrations, Windows will be able to support the computing for my business.
  - giancarlostoro 2y ago
    I agree, I gave up on Windows since the deployment target for .NET services (web, etc) are now fully Linux, at least in my case. Linux is a known OS and there's thousands of experts. We can see under the covers and get a deep understanding. I highly recommend you install Linux on an older laptop and try it on your time off. As for package management, in terms of .NET its just nuget still, in terms of installing packages, there's UIs for them, but yeah you do need to sit down and read about it so you have some familiarity for when something goes wrong, which in the case of Ubuntu / Debian is only really the case if you're installing packages not maintained by them, Debian has insanely strict rules on what they consider stable, which means you get a slightly "dated" set of packages, but the confidence that your OS will not blow up out of the blue. What pushed me over the edge to Linux was Windows Defender sends files to Microsoft for analysis, but there's no audit trail for what those files are. It could be my PII for taxes, could be highly proprietary documents for my employer / company. I have no way to know what the heck their heuristics or whatever has seemingly found suspicious and uploaded.
    - graycat 2y ago
lewispollard 2y ago
I used to work at the IBM lab where Rexx was created, funnily enough I've never heard of anyone using it in the wild!
- daghamm 2y ago
  Wasn't the Amiga version pretty big back in the day?
  - drsopp 2y ago
    Yes, ARexx was big. A lot of popular software had an ARexx API so you could script across programs. Pretty awesome. I haven't seen anything like that since.
- graycat 2y ago
  "Wild"? I used to work at IBM!
  - lewispollard 2y ago
    Aha!
    - graycat 2y ago
      At Google, refreshed my memory: Mike Cowlishaw - Hursley
jiggawatts 2y ago
The weird thing about rants like this is I tell customers that there are very few business-oriented new features in Windows 11 that justifies the upgrade, but there are quite a few developer-oriented features that are unique to it. Windows Terminal is a nice example, but proper support for Windows Containers is huge. It was “technically possible” to containerise workloads on Windows 10 but you had to maintain the exact same patch level as the server OS the containers would run on! Windows 11 removed this restriction. There’s also Dev Drive and a bunch of other small things like HTTP/3 and TLS 1.3 support and whatnot. At $dayjob I have to hold the hand of helpless devs mired in corporate miasma complete with out-of-date Windows 10 desktops. I regularly have the issue of trying to show them something and failing because I forgot I have Windows 11 and they don’t.
- isomorphic- 2y ago
  Windows Terminal is not unique to Windows 11. You can install it on Windows 10. As for containers, you can install Docker or Podman or some other container infrastructure. The Windows versions of them have hooks into the Windows OS too. TLS 1.3 can be enabled in Windows 10 by toggling a registry key.
jareklupinski 2y ago
> Sooooo, I'm ready to pull hair and scream trying to find a way to install a genuine, 100% authentic, dyed in the wool, DVD, SSD, SEO, whatever, I can use to install 10 on my new HP. there's a windows 10 build called "LTSC" that cuts out all the "Windows-as-a-Service" products you still have to run a few debloat/service uninstall powershell scripts after reinstalling, but it's honestly the only thing keeping me from going full linux
- shepherdjerred 2y ago
  There’s a similar build for Windows 11
- MaxikCZ 2y ago
  Its funny how Microsoft basically hides it from the world, and if you happen to know about it, you still cant buy a single licence to run on your personal PC.
  - petepete 2y ago
    If they marketed it every enthusiast/pro/gamer would buy it and it'd make their default offering look like some kind of economy version.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
katbyte 2y ago
Msdn should still have isos. I still have my installer archive from 98 till 10 thou as my windows machine is a vm it just exists. I have a backup from just after a fresh install I can restore a new machine from if I need be
isomorphic- 2y ago
Running an end-of-service OS such as Windows 7 means it's very likely that there are plenty of unpatchable zero-days for it. Being forced to upgrade probably made you safer and reduced your attack surface. I completely agree with you about Windows 11's unusability. However, Windows 10 will be end-of-service in a year and that really sucks. I have been clinging to Windows 10 and I do not look forward to being forced to upgrade. But it's better than having a system that no longer has security updates and has tons of nation states looking for/already hoarding zero-days.
- hulitu 2y ago
  > Running an end-of-service OS such as Windows 7 means it's very likely that there are plenty of unpatchable zero-days for it. Being forced to upgrade probably made you safer and reduced your attack surface. What makes you think that ? People usually target the latest Windows version.
blackoil 2y ago
Rejoice in fact, No one will be wasting 0 day on you.
- giantg2 2y ago
  But it doesn't have to be a zero day if it's never getting patched at this point. It could be a 400 day that acts like a zero day - even more dangerous due to the potential for more threat actors to know about it and using the exploit doesn't burn it.
pathartl 2y ago
I'd honestly give 11 a valid shot, probably with 11 Pro. It's by far my favorite version of the OS over the years, and I've been a user since 3.11 days. These days, Windows 10 feels old to me. It does take a bit of customization on first start (I like to align left, disable search, tasks button, copilot, etc), but it's been by far the most stable and consistent Windows I've used since probably 7.
southernplaces7 2y ago
massgrave.dev

lhamil64 2y ago

I'm curious why you prefer Rexx as a scripting language on Windows over something like Python or even PowerShell. I use it quite a bit for work and find it pretty limiting. With a lack of built in libraries even some simple stuff like parsing JSON can be a huge pain.

graycat 2y ago
Why Rexx? (A) Used it for decades. (B) The latest Object Oriented Rexx has some nice things, e.g., SysFileTree to get a nice file of all the names in a directory tree. (C) Yup, I agree that could use more tools and not have to roll my own. (D) Sure, looked at PowerShell: Looks like it has some nice powerful features but a, uh, goofy syntax -- intend to do more, maybe a lot more, with it. (E) Lots of people are taking Python seriously, and for more than just a scripting language, e.g., maybe all the software for a significant Web site. Intend to devote a weekend to Python. One little thing I did recently with Rexx was take an email message, all in just text, that had a Web page, as a MIME (multi-media Internet Mail Extensions or some such) Part, get the MIME part with the HTML, fix the email '=' characters used for splitting long lines, replaced some uses of special characters, and did get a Web page that Firefox would read. Worked? Yup. Elegant? Nope.
- PenguinCoder 2y ago
  Dang, I'd like a copy of that script. Eml parsing, even with powershell and Exchange modules, is painful.

wildzzz 2y ago

Here's some good news: your license for Windows 11 is probably good for Windows 10 as well. Grab a Windows 10 install media from Microsoft and do a clean install on the drive. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10ISO https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10I...

jwrallie 2y ago
Still there is only one year left of support if you do that.
- graycat 2y ago
  I still get "security updates" for Windows 7 Professional and am unsure what the lack of "support" might mean for my business.
  - jborean93 2y ago
    Extended support ended in Jan 2020 and the paid ESU support ended in Jan 2023 [1]. Are you sure those updates aren't just defender/AV definition updates rather than actual OS updates? [1] - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/faq/extended-security-updates https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/faq/extended-sec...
    - graycat 2y ago
      Perhaps: "Defender" is what I've noticed.
      - bravetraveler 2y ago
        Anti-virus definitions, not really exhaustive security maintenance. Defender is their AV. The firewall/kernel isn't included, for example How important that is, no idea! The firewall is probably passable but I generally don't know your risk profile. Applications and the rest of the system offer a lot of surface area

giancarlostoro 2y ago

I also do .NET but I went with Linux instead. Something Ubuntu based like POP OS or just plain any of the official Ubuntu flavors did the trick for me. Heck for fun I migrated a .NET 3.5 project thats been untouched for centuries all the way to the latest all on Linux, and it looks like it worked with barely any issues.

graycat 2y ago
Versions of Linux seem to have a lot of value and are real competition for all the versions of Windows. But I decided to concentrate on just one operating system and there picked Windows. Otherwise I want to concentrate on my needed software development, the inevitable system management, and, then most of all, the business itself. I'm guessing that, whatever frustrations, Windows will be able to support the computing for my business.
- giancarlostoro 2y ago
  I agree, I gave up on Windows since the deployment target for .NET services (web, etc) are now fully Linux, at least in my case. Linux is a known OS and there's thousands of experts. We can see under the covers and get a deep understanding. I highly recommend you install Linux on an older laptop and try it on your time off. As for package management, in terms of .NET its just nuget still, in terms of installing packages, there's UIs for them, but yeah you do need to sit down and read about it so you have some familiarity for when something goes wrong, which in the case of Ubuntu / Debian is only really the case if you're installing packages not maintained by them, Debian has insanely strict rules on what they consider stable, which means you get a slightly "dated" set of packages, but the confidence that your OS will not blow up out of the blue. What pushed me over the edge to Linux was Windows Defender sends files to Microsoft for analysis, but there's no audit trail for what those files are. It could be my PII for taxes, could be highly proprietary documents for my employer / company. I have no way to know what the heck their heuristics or whatever has seemingly found suspicious and uploaded.
  - graycat 2y ago

lewispollard 2y ago

I used to work at the IBM lab where Rexx was created, funnily enough I've never heard of anyone using it in the wild!

daghamm 2y ago
Wasn't the Amiga version pretty big back in the day?
- drsopp 2y ago
  Yes, ARexx was big. A lot of popular software had an ARexx API so you could script across programs. Pretty awesome. I haven't seen anything like that since.
graycat 2y ago
"Wild"? I used to work at IBM!
- lewispollard 2y ago
  Aha!
  - graycat 2y ago
    At Google, refreshed my memory: Mike Cowlishaw - Hursley

jiggawatts 2y ago

The weird thing about rants like this is I tell customers that there are very few business-oriented new features in Windows 11 that justifies the upgrade, but there are quite a few developer-oriented features that are unique to it. Windows Terminal is a nice example, but proper support for Windows Containers is huge. It was “technically possible” to containerise workloads on Windows 10 but you had to maintain the exact same patch level as the server OS the containers would run on! Windows 11 removed this restriction. There’s also Dev Drive and a bunch of other small things like HTTP/3 and TLS 1.3 support and whatnot. At $dayjob I have to hold the hand of helpless devs mired in corporate miasma complete with out-of-date Windows 10 desktops. I regularly have the issue of trying to show them something and failing because I forgot I have Windows 11 and they don’t.

isomorphic- 2y ago
Windows Terminal is not unique to Windows 11. You can install it on Windows 10. As for containers, you can install Docker or Podman or some other container infrastructure. The Windows versions of them have hooks into the Windows OS too. TLS 1.3 can be enabled in Windows 10 by toggling a registry key.

jareklupinski 2y ago

> Sooooo, I'm ready to pull hair and scream trying to find a way to install a genuine, 100% authentic, dyed in the wool, DVD, SSD, SEO, whatever, I can use to install 10 on my new HP. there's a windows 10 build called "LTSC" that cuts out all the "Windows-as-a-Service" products you still have to run a few debloat/service uninstall powershell scripts after reinstalling, but it's honestly the only thing keeping me from going full linux

shepherdjerred 2y ago
There’s a similar build for Windows 11
MaxikCZ 2y ago
Its funny how Microsoft basically hides it from the world, and if you happen to know about it, you still cant buy a single licence to run on your personal PC.
- petepete 2y ago
  If they marketed it every enthusiast/pro/gamer would buy it and it'd make their default offering look like some kind of economy version.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

aaron695 2y ago

[dead]

katbyte 2y ago

Msdn should still have isos. I still have my installer archive from 98 till 10 thou as my windows machine is a vm it just exists. I have a backup from just after a fresh install I can restore a new machine from if I need be

isomorphic- 2y ago

Running an end-of-service OS such as Windows 7 means it's very likely that there are plenty of unpatchable zero-days for it. Being forced to upgrade probably made you safer and reduced your attack surface. I completely agree with you about Windows 11's unusability. However, Windows 10 will be end-of-service in a year and that really sucks. I have been clinging to Windows 10 and I do not look forward to being forced to upgrade. But it's better than having a system that no longer has security updates and has tons of nation states looking for/already hoarding zero-days.

hulitu 2y ago
> Running an end-of-service OS such as Windows 7 means it's very likely that there are plenty of unpatchable zero-days for it. Being forced to upgrade probably made you safer and reduced your attack surface. What makes you think that ? People usually target the latest Windows version.

blackoil 2y ago

Rejoice in fact, No one will be wasting 0 day on you.

giantg2 2y ago
But it doesn't have to be a zero day if it's never getting patched at this point. It could be a 400 day that acts like a zero day - even more dangerous due to the potential for more threat actors to know about it and using the exploit doesn't burn it.

pathartl 2y ago

I'd honestly give 11 a valid shot, probably with 11 Pro. It's by far my favorite version of the OS over the years, and I've been a user since 3.11 days. These days, Windows 10 feels old to me. It does take a bit of customization on first start (I like to align left, disable search, tasks button, copilot, etc), but it's been by far the most stable and consistent Windows I've used since probably 7.

southernplaces7 2y ago

massgrave.dev