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Given that YouTube uses the like and subscribe buttons as inputs for its recommendation algorithm, doesn't this feature just aid and abet content creators in ga

by cjs_ac 2y ago

Given that YouTube uses the like and subscribe buttons as inputs for its recommendation algorithm, doesn't this feature just aid and abet content creators in gaming YouTube's system?

skybrian 2y ago
Many entertainers on YouTube do that routinely. It seems way too late to start worrying about it. I’m wondering what an unbiased survey would even look like.
rft 2y ago
I have noticed multiple YT content creators just casually mentioning things like "like and subscribe for the algorithm" and even "leave a comment for the algorithm", which people do, sometimes just saying "comment for the algorithm". One creator I remember did a "if you watched until the end comment 'boat'" or similar, which of course is again just baiting more comments. It also nudges recurring viewers who know that spiel to watch until the end, because they get to enjoy the dopamine from being one of the people who can comment the word. This increases watch time, which apparently is again one of the things the algorithm uses. Maybe I have just become more attentive to these things or they have become more prevalent, but I notice this blatant optimization for the Algorithm(tm) more and more. I guess this is the meta you need to play in order to stand out/make it in the torrent of content that is YT or social media in general. I also see this as an example of Goodhart's law as creators try to optimize for reach and thus likes etc. while the original intention of the YT Algorithm(tm) was (or should have been) to serve you content you will enjoy.
- SllX 2y ago
  Just yesterday I discovered a channel that asks for people who watched all the way to the end to replay the video at 0.25x speed to support the channel. I have zero clue if that would work and I’m not going to do that, but he makes good videos so I mean, if others want to do, it’s whatever I guess. I no longer care about crap like that, YouTube is essentially its own medium at this point.
  - rcxdude 2y ago
    Youtube definitely switched at some point from rewarding number of views (which incentivized short content: 10 minutes was a bit of a meme for a bit because that was the minimum for monetizing) to rewarding watch time (which incentivizes longer content: suddenly people noticed VODs of 6 hour livestreams doing numbers), as far as their recommendations and ad rewards worked. I wouldn't be surprised if they take the video speed adjustment into consideration such that the suggested action would contribute.
mrguyorama 2y ago
Google WANTS creators to embrace the algorithm. The algorithm being the only useful way to get views means google gets to shape how people make stuff for youtube. "Gaming the system" is the INTENDED result. The best example of this is clickbait thumbnails. Nearly every creator I am subscribed to has expressed hatred for them, and yet they mostly still make them. Why? Because, when youtube shows your thumbnail to someone, if they do anything other than click on that thumbnail, your channel/video is downranked in the algorithm (because it has "low conversion"). Every creator is in a zero sum, fully antagonistic war with every other creator to get you to click on their video instead of someone else's. If a channel has low enough "conversion" for long enough, youtube will stop showing that video to potential viewers, including your actual subscribers. For a channel to survive and make enough money to pay rent and things, you have to play the dumb algorithm games. Patreon is literally the only alternative. Youtube prefers it this way because then they get to crowdsource more addictive and "engagement driving" content through millions of creators, rather than just a department in google (which honestly they probably still have). They didn't have to tell anyone to make "more stupid clickbait thumbnails", they did it themselves because it was encouraged by the incentives given to them. A Youtube where everyone plays the algorithms and thumbnail games literally earns more money and views than a youtube where every creator is only driven by their own desires to make good art. Google has been doing this since they bought Youtube. Early on, only videos longer than ten minutes could get ads, so every video ballooned to ten minutes and one second in length.

by cjs_ac 2y ago

Given that YouTube uses the like and subscribe buttons as inputs for its recommendation algorithm, doesn't this feature just aid and abet content creators in gaming YouTube's system?

skybrian 2y ago

Many entertainers on YouTube do that routinely. It seems way too late to start worrying about it. I’m wondering what an unbiased survey would even look like.

rft 2y ago

I have noticed multiple YT content creators just casually mentioning things like "like and subscribe for the algorithm" and even "leave a comment for the algorithm", which people do, sometimes just saying "comment for the algorithm". One creator I remember did a "if you watched until the end comment 'boat'" or similar, which of course is again just baiting more comments. It also nudges recurring viewers who know that spiel to watch until the end, because they get to enjoy the dopamine from being one of the people who can comment the word. This increases watch time, which apparently is again one of the things the algorithm uses. Maybe I have just become more attentive to these things or they have become more prevalent, but I notice this blatant optimization for the Algorithm(tm) more and more. I guess this is the meta you need to play in order to stand out/make it in the torrent of content that is YT or social media in general. I also see this as an example of Goodhart's law as creators try to optimize for reach and thus likes etc. while the original intention of the YT Algorithm(tm) was (or should have been) to serve you content you will enjoy.

SllX 2y ago
Just yesterday I discovered a channel that asks for people who watched all the way to the end to replay the video at 0.25x speed to support the channel. I have zero clue if that would work and I’m not going to do that, but he makes good videos so I mean, if others want to do, it’s whatever I guess. I no longer care about crap like that, YouTube is essentially its own medium at this point.
- rcxdude 2y ago
  Youtube definitely switched at some point from rewarding number of views (which incentivized short content: 10 minutes was a bit of a meme for a bit because that was the minimum for monetizing) to rewarding watch time (which incentivizes longer content: suddenly people noticed VODs of 6 hour livestreams doing numbers), as far as their recommendations and ad rewards worked. I wouldn't be surprised if they take the video speed adjustment into consideration such that the suggested action would contribute.

mrguyorama 2y ago

Google WANTS creators to embrace the algorithm. The algorithm being the only useful way to get views means google gets to shape how people make stuff for youtube. "Gaming the system" is the INTENDED result. The best example of this is clickbait thumbnails. Nearly every creator I am subscribed to has expressed hatred for them, and yet they mostly still make them. Why? Because, when youtube shows your thumbnail to someone, if they do anything other than click on that thumbnail, your channel/video is downranked in the algorithm (because it has "low conversion"). Every creator is in a zero sum, fully antagonistic war with every other creator to get you to click on their video instead of someone else's. If a channel has low enough "conversion" for long enough, youtube will stop showing that video to potential viewers, including your actual subscribers. For a channel to survive and make enough money to pay rent and things, you have to play the dumb algorithm games. Patreon is literally the only alternative. Youtube prefers it this way because then they get to crowdsource more addictive and "engagement driving" content through millions of creators, rather than just a department in google (which honestly they probably still have). They didn't have to tell anyone to make "more stupid clickbait thumbnails", they did it themselves because it was encouraged by the incentives given to them. A Youtube where everyone plays the algorithms and thumbnail games literally earns more money and views than a youtube where every creator is only driven by their own desires to make good art. Google has been doing this since they bought Youtube. Early on, only videos longer than ten minutes could get ads, so every video ballooned to ten minutes and one second in length.