5 ms·

I think the suggested improvement clarifies what he means: if you're worried that the UI element the user is interacting with doesn't fully convey what's happen

by dkarl 2y ago

I think the suggested improvement clarifies what he means: if you're worried that the UI element the user is interacting with doesn't fully convey what's happening, then improve that element rather than adding a second element that divides the user's attention and challenges them to read quickly and make the connection themselves. Communicate the failure of their interaction in the context of the element they interacted with, so the connection is clear. A toast makes sense as a worst-case, last-gasp, no-context attempt to communicate with a user. In this example, if the user unchecked a playlist and dismissed the list of playlists while the save was happening, and then the save failed, a toast makes sense because the context of the action is gone. Might as well put the information at a random spot on the screen. Even then, a toast probably isn't the best you can do, if you really want the user to understand the error. In a the-user-is-the-product adware application like YouTube, you probably don't care if the user misses errors like these (and might even prefer that they do), but in a business application you wouldn't want to gamble on the user missing the toast or confusing it with a different error. It might be more helpful for a normal user if you re-open the element and show them the error in context. Open up the list of playlists and animate something to draw their attention to the fact that their change didn't save. I'm probably getting pie in the sky here, because that sounds really difficult to do in a systematic way, but in an ideal world, you'd always see errors in context.

lolinder 2y ago
I get what they were saying and agree that in-context feedback should be added wherever possible. I just disagree that leaving off the toast is (in the cases cited) valuable. Taking the archive example: yes, the disappearing message successfully indicates that something happened. But it doesn't tell you if the message was deleted or archived, and misclicks are common. The toast unambiguously communicates what happened in addition to saying that something happened. Additionally, I stand by my argument that consistency is valuable. By all means have in-context feedback, but also pick a standard way that you always use to communicate completion of all actions. It makes it a lot easier to understand and eventually make use of the in-context feedback which may not be as intuitive as you think it is.
- digging 2y ago
  > I just disagree that leaving off the toast is (in the cases cited) valuable. But adding a toast isn't free. It's a distraction, and arguably a pretty intense one for ND folks -- especially when it becomes a standardized message center with multiple items queued up. In many cases the most useful toasts would also be better if they weren't toasts. For me, the most useful toast I interact with also demonstrates why toasts are bad UX: creating a new ticket in Jira. Since that can't happen instantly, it needs a delayed message to let you know when the ticket is created and you actually have a URL to open. A toast is useful in this case, but it's also far from optimal, because for some reason it's going to disappear in a few seconds, and it also won't tell me how many seconds I have left to read it. Why would distraction be the primary mechanism? We figured out decades ago how to put a button in the header that opens a messages feed which the user can read and dismiss at will. While it's possible to implement such a feed badly so that it's annoying, it's difficult to implement toasts in a way that aren't annoying. Maybe even impossible.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    > But adding a toast isn't free. It's a distraction, and arguably a pretty intense one for ND folks -- especially when it becomes a standardized message center with multiple items queued up. Diagnosed with ADHD, so I'm guessing an ND folk here: modern applications in general, and webshit in particular, give me huge anxiety because of all the eventual consistency and optimistic actions bullshit[0], coupled with flakiness and bloat of entire modern software stacks[1]. Maybe "toasts" aren't the bee's knees, but they work as lagging indicator that something happened that I otherwise wouldn't notice, and in some apps even lets me undo the unwanted operation. That does a lot to relieve my anxiety and help me use software with less frustration. -- [0] - That itself is a big antipattern. Software lying to user about its state is a form of gaslighting; it makes interaction more error-prone, and prevents users from building correct mental models of the application and its interactions with other systems. [1] - My Android flagship lags often enough on taps and drags that every other day my input gets misinterpreted and does something unwanted. Similarly, I type faster than most software - webshit in particular - can react, so e.g. a small jitter can turn "ctrl+t n e w s <ret>" into "ctrl" (held, released) and then "n e w s <ret>", which does $deity knows what in the current tab.

by dkarl 2y ago

lolinder 2y ago

I get what they were saying and agree that in-context feedback should be added wherever possible. I just disagree that leaving off the toast is (in the cases cited) valuable. Taking the archive example: yes, the disappearing message successfully indicates that something happened. But it doesn't tell you if the message was deleted or archived, and misclicks are common. The toast unambiguously communicates what happened in addition to saying that something happened. Additionally, I stand by my argument that consistency is valuable. By all means have in-context feedback, but also pick a standard way that you always use to communicate completion of all actions. It makes it a lot easier to understand and eventually make use of the in-context feedback which may not be as intuitive as you think it is.

digging 2y ago
> I just disagree that leaving off the toast is (in the cases cited) valuable. But adding a toast isn't free. It's a distraction, and arguably a pretty intense one for ND folks -- especially when it becomes a standardized message center with multiple items queued up. In many cases the most useful toasts would also be better if they weren't toasts. For me, the most useful toast I interact with also demonstrates why toasts are bad UX: creating a new ticket in Jira. Since that can't happen instantly, it needs a delayed message to let you know when the ticket is created and you actually have a URL to open. A toast is useful in this case, but it's also far from optimal, because for some reason it's going to disappear in a few seconds, and it also won't tell me how many seconds I have left to read it. Why would distraction be the primary mechanism? We figured out decades ago how to put a button in the header that opens a messages feed which the user can read and dismiss at will. While it's possible to implement such a feed badly so that it's annoying, it's difficult to implement toasts in a way that aren't annoying. Maybe even impossible.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  > But adding a toast isn't free. It's a distraction, and arguably a pretty intense one for ND folks -- especially when it becomes a standardized message center with multiple items queued up. Diagnosed with ADHD, so I'm guessing an ND folk here: modern applications in general, and webshit in particular, give me huge anxiety because of all the eventual consistency and optimistic actions bullshit[0], coupled with flakiness and bloat of entire modern software stacks[1]. Maybe "toasts" aren't the bee's knees, but they work as lagging indicator that something happened that I otherwise wouldn't notice, and in some apps even lets me undo the unwanted operation. That does a lot to relieve my anxiety and help me use software with less frustration. -- [0] - That itself is a big antipattern. Software lying to user about its state is a form of gaslighting; it makes interaction more error-prone, and prevents users from building correct mental models of the application and its interactions with other systems. [1] - My Android flagship lags often enough on taps and drags that every other day my input gets misinterpreted and does something unwanted. Similarly, I type faster than most software - webshit in particular - can react, so e.g. a small jitter can turn "ctrl+t n e w s <ret>" into "ctrl" (held, released) and then "n e w s <ret>", which does $deity knows what in the current tab.