6 ms·

Thank you for this summary. It's too late for me to scream at clouds, about the politicization of literature awards. Should I lament the rise of the MFA and th

by noch 2y ago

Thank you for this summary. It's too late for me to scream at clouds, about the politicization of literature awards. Should I lament the rise of the MFA and the institutionalization of writing fiction in the academy? That ship has sailed and many celebrate that, which is fine. And yet, I still find myself wanting to read sci-fi (not fantasy) that's about non-trivial ideas, written by authors who are obsessed with science and things, rather than relationships and identities and traumas and oppression. I especially want to read writing by authors who can hold conflicting ideas in their heads without imploding and are able to say to themselves, "there's a high probability that all my fundamental values and beliefs are wrong and it is instead 'they' — the spectral, despicable They! — who are ethically and philosophically correct." I imagine a sci-fi author who has seen further than other humans, and wants to share what they have seen. I'd also love beautiful sentences if possible. Then I'd love literary sci-fi prizes whose judges have a deep and principled understanding of human history, who aren't activists in spirit, but want contrarian ideas that set the imagination and intellect on fire about the possibilities of technology and science and human problem solving. Finally, I want a sci-fi prize that conveys optimism about humanity on the cusp of great accomplishments; humanity on the verge of even greater and more bewildering and challenging adventures.

surgical_fire 2y ago
Speaking as someone who rolled his eyes at the synopsis of each entry in GP's list... I mean, you can just ignore the awards. Like, think of it like the Oscars. It has been a very long time that "winning an Oscar" was predictive of how much I would enjoy a movie. What would some book awards be any different? Just look for authors that write the sort of things you want to read, awards be damned.
- noch 2y ago
  > I mean, you can just ignore the awards. > Just look for authors that write the sort of things you want to read, awards be damned. Indeed. We can simply ignore many things in life. I'm not complaining that I have no agency. I was making a different point.
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    Your point is that you wanted some sort of awards that matched your interests more closely. And that is fair, I think? I can empathize with the sentiment. A lot of the themes covered there just don't appeal to my tastes either.
    - noch 2y ago
      > A lot of the themes covered there just don't appeal to my tastes either. Yes. That's how I feel. Sorry I didn't elucidate. The broader point I was making is about what I see as a pipeline problem. I don't want to generalize too much but if you've also attempted to get a novel or short story published, or apply for a writing workshop/grant/fellowship/retreat so that you can work on a novel you've drafted, you tend to encounter strange dynamics that I'm not sure I can competently describe without sounding like a "reply guy". Nevertheless, I'm … concerned that literary culture is being (already has been) shaped into something that makes the books I'm interested in increasingly rare. Either they never get published, or take longer to get published than they otherwise would, or they are self-published and don't receive the editorial attention they deserve, or are never promoted, making them harder to find and subsequent work from that author unlikely. I don't have comprehensive data to demonstrate this and it's impossible to prove counterfactuals. But to the extent that prizes are how an industry or community presents its culture to the rest of the world, I worry about ideological capture and try to pitch different directions.
      - surgical_fire 2y ago
        I have no idea how the book industry works, but I think I sort of understand the problem you are gesturing at. Instead of being worried, I just feel an unsurmountable sense of apathy to new publications. Maybe due to my disconnect and disinterest in themes being addressed, and what I perceive as excessive contamination of current sociopolitical agitation. Stories are often highjacked to in favor of those things. Perhaps it was always like this, and I just didn't know better? It changes little. This extends to other forms of art, such as movies, comics, videogames. My solution was embracing the past, sticking to things created more than a decade and a half ago. For more modern things, I try to look at more independent produced works. Maybe I am just too old and boring at this point. "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"
trescenzi 2y ago
Why are relationships, identities, trauma, and oppression trivial ideas? Why do you think these authors cannot hold conflicting views in their mind? I fully appreciate what you’re trying to say and absolutely there should be an award for what you’re looking for too. But it doesn’t help the discussion to put down those who write what you’re not interested in. You might already know this but my recommendation would be to look at the Nebula awards. Those are industry awards. The Hugo is a fan award so the style of writing is much more likely to change as popular tastes change.
- antman 2y ago
  It is good you are trying to appreciate what he is saying. For another attempt at explaining for you in a simplified matter: Dragons and monsters are for fantasy genre even if they wear a spacesuit, relationships and drama for romantic novels even if they wear a spacesuite, science and technonology are for science fiction. Hugo awards core description is sci fi and fantasy as per their declaration. Hugo awarded novels core prediction is whether there are gender multiplicities in the novel which is not that scientific of fantastic. It has danger of killing the scifi genre or the awards. Although I sympathize, I find it boring on a scifi or fantasy perspective
  - noch 2y ago
    You said it better than I could. :-) Thanks.
  - trescenzi 2y ago
    Science Fiction has a long history of exploring the political climate of the day by extrapolating from the current period. Frankenstein is a good classic example of course but even something like War of the Worlds has many possible interpretations some of which are deeply political. I'm all for awards which promote hard sci-fi. I also appreciate that for someone who's looking for that sort of novel the latest awards feel like they might put that genre at risk.
    - Daub 2y ago
CRConrad 2y ago
> And yet, I still find myself wanting to read sci-fi (not fantasy) that's about non-trivial ideas, written by authors who are obsessed with science and things, rather than relationships and identities and traumas and oppression. Still quite a lot of that around, AIUI. Just takes (quite a bit) more trial and error to find it nowadays.
- noch 2y ago
  > Just takes (quite a bit) more trial and error to find it nowadays. Agreed. I can't complain too strenuously about being required to do more legwork to find good writing. If I'm going to spend a week or longer with a book, I'm happy to do more than merely swipe-right, swipe-left :-)
troyvit 2y ago
I'm re-reading The Expanse series, which started in 2011. I was talking about it with some friends, and they basically said, "Oh cool my MFA friends really like that series because it has so many non-binary relationships and stuff." I'm paraphrasing but you get the gist. I literally had to stop and think about it. It's not that I didn't notice while I was reading that there was relationship stuff going on, and concepts of identities, traumas and oppression, it's just that all those things were woven so well into some damn good hard science fiction that it just felt natural right next to rail guns, asteroid bases and mysterious alien stuff. Whether the series has optimism about humanity ... well I personally think the point of the series is to explore that. The series won a Hugo in 2020 and I think they deserved it.

by noch 2y ago

surgical_fire 2y ago

Speaking as someone who rolled his eyes at the synopsis of each entry in GP's list... I mean, you can just ignore the awards. Like, think of it like the Oscars. It has been a very long time that "winning an Oscar" was predictive of how much I would enjoy a movie. What would some book awards be any different? Just look for authors that write the sort of things you want to read, awards be damned.

noch 2y ago
> I mean, you can just ignore the awards. > Just look for authors that write the sort of things you want to read, awards be damned. Indeed. We can simply ignore many things in life. I'm not complaining that I have no agency. I was making a different point.
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  Your point is that you wanted some sort of awards that matched your interests more closely. And that is fair, I think? I can empathize with the sentiment. A lot of the themes covered there just don't appeal to my tastes either.
  - noch 2y ago
    > A lot of the themes covered there just don't appeal to my tastes either. Yes. That's how I feel. Sorry I didn't elucidate. The broader point I was making is about what I see as a pipeline problem. I don't want to generalize too much but if you've also attempted to get a novel or short story published, or apply for a writing workshop/grant/fellowship/retreat so that you can work on a novel you've drafted, you tend to encounter strange dynamics that I'm not sure I can competently describe without sounding like a "reply guy". Nevertheless, I'm … concerned that literary culture is being (already has been) shaped into something that makes the books I'm interested in increasingly rare. Either they never get published, or take longer to get published than they otherwise would, or they are self-published and don't receive the editorial attention they deserve, or are never promoted, making them harder to find and subsequent work from that author unlikely. I don't have comprehensive data to demonstrate this and it's impossible to prove counterfactuals. But to the extent that prizes are how an industry or community presents its culture to the rest of the world, I worry about ideological capture and try to pitch different directions.
    - surgical_fire 2y ago
      I have no idea how the book industry works, but I think I sort of understand the problem you are gesturing at. Instead of being worried, I just feel an unsurmountable sense of apathy to new publications. Maybe due to my disconnect and disinterest in themes being addressed, and what I perceive as excessive contamination of current sociopolitical agitation. Stories are often highjacked to in favor of those things. Perhaps it was always like this, and I just didn't know better? It changes little. This extends to other forms of art, such as movies, comics, videogames. My solution was embracing the past, sticking to things created more than a decade and a half ago. For more modern things, I try to look at more independent produced works. Maybe I am just too old and boring at this point. "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"

trescenzi 2y ago

Why are relationships, identities, trauma, and oppression trivial ideas? Why do you think these authors cannot hold conflicting views in their mind? I fully appreciate what you’re trying to say and absolutely there should be an award for what you’re looking for too. But it doesn’t help the discussion to put down those who write what you’re not interested in. You might already know this but my recommendation would be to look at the Nebula awards. Those are industry awards. The Hugo is a fan award so the style of writing is much more likely to change as popular tastes change.

antman 2y ago
It is good you are trying to appreciate what he is saying. For another attempt at explaining for you in a simplified matter: Dragons and monsters are for fantasy genre even if they wear a spacesuit, relationships and drama for romantic novels even if they wear a spacesuite, science and technonology are for science fiction. Hugo awards core description is sci fi and fantasy as per their declaration. Hugo awarded novels core prediction is whether there are gender multiplicities in the novel which is not that scientific of fantastic. It has danger of killing the scifi genre or the awards. Although I sympathize, I find it boring on a scifi or fantasy perspective
- noch 2y ago
  You said it better than I could. :-) Thanks.
- trescenzi 2y ago
  Science Fiction has a long history of exploring the political climate of the day by extrapolating from the current period. Frankenstein is a good classic example of course but even something like War of the Worlds has many possible interpretations some of which are deeply political. I'm all for awards which promote hard sci-fi. I also appreciate that for someone who's looking for that sort of novel the latest awards feel like they might put that genre at risk.
  - Daub 2y ago

CRConrad 2y ago

> And yet, I still find myself wanting to read sci-fi (not fantasy) that's about non-trivial ideas, written by authors who are obsessed with science and things, rather than relationships and identities and traumas and oppression. Still quite a lot of that around, AIUI. Just takes (quite a bit) more trial and error to find it nowadays.

noch 2y ago
> Just takes (quite a bit) more trial and error to find it nowadays. Agreed. I can't complain too strenuously about being required to do more legwork to find good writing. If I'm going to spend a week or longer with a book, I'm happy to do more than merely swipe-right, swipe-left :-)

troyvit 2y ago

I'm re-reading The Expanse series, which started in 2011. I was talking about it with some friends, and they basically said, "Oh cool my MFA friends really like that series because it has so many non-binary relationships and stuff." I'm paraphrasing but you get the gist. I literally had to stop and think about it. It's not that I didn't notice while I was reading that there was relationship stuff going on, and concepts of identities, traumas and oppression, it's just that all those things were woven so well into some damn good hard science fiction that it just felt natural right next to rail guns, asteroid bases and mysterious alien stuff. Whether the series has optimism about humanity ... well I personally think the point of the series is to explore that. The series won a Hugo in 2020 and I think they deserved it.