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This seems to me like. a case of "hindsight is 20/20". There were thousands of design decisions made in the ship's controls, and likely multiple of them can in

This seems to me like. a case of "hindsight is 20/20". There were thousands of design decisions made in the ship's controls, and likely multiple of them can in certain, yet untested scenarios, cause a disaster. Has he identified those as well? And isn't more training and experience also an effective way to handle more of these possible scenarios?

actionfromafar 2y ago
Training is good, but it's not like design (I mean in how it should be used, not looks) is something which should be ignored. If you have a bad design, you need an awful lot of training to compensate for that. The incident report almost didn't mention design at all, so what are the chances of the problems ever getting addressed?
- stackskipton 2y ago
  >The incident report almost didn't mention design at all, so what are the chances of the problems ever getting addressed? The fact the Touch Screen shouldn't have been there? Almost zero. EDIT: Apparently the Navy is going to put all mechanical controls back. I was totally wrong. My guess is a bunch of retired flag officers at some defense contractor pitched it and close to retirement flag officers approved it. Maybe in 10 years, they will quietly change it behind closed doors but more than likely, someone has great idea of using Vision Pro to control everything because Heads Up Display or some insane thing they can sell to Navy for big money.
account42 2y ago
If making the primary propulsion some ad-hoc touchscreen control instead of a physical lever is only something you can get to with hindsight then you shouldn't even be anywhere near to a position where you can make that mistake.
- figassis 2y ago
  The point is that this was likely only one of many poor design decisions that were and will keep being made. I get touch screens are universally bad for operating vehicles or any other machine that requires attention, muscle memory and quick response times, but, if another disaster happens tomorrow for some other design issue not related to touch screens, will he then write another post about how that was the main issue? Because it's not the main issue. The crew where unaware of the physics of the controls. Would this not have happened with physical controls? It seems it is not immediately obvious at any time how much steering is being caused by the propellers or the rudder. Having 2 physical levers positioned differently would not make it more obvious to someone already unaware of this. They woud likely not look for the Gang button even if it were a giant red button. Now if the gang feature were designed (physically or digitally) to always snap back to locked unless some constant pressure is applied (like a spring), maybe this would be imprinted into every crew member.
  - pdonis 2y ago
    > Having 2 physical levers positioned differently would not make it more obvious to someone already unaware of this. Yes, it would, because it's so much easier to see. Remember that everybody on that bridge, which includes the Captain and the Officer of the Deck, was unaware of how the throttles were set. Two physical levers would have made it obvious to those people, and they could then have issued the right commands to fix it.
    - jeroenhd 2y ago
      I think making essential controls touch screen based is stupid for a variety of reasons, but I don't think physical levers would've changed the situation. Airplanes have crashed because pilots misinterpreted physical levers, switches, displays, and lights. There have been accidents where a (co)pilot was confused by the lack of power they themselves were physically applying with their hands. You can add synchronised force-feedback levers to every station, but that doesn't matter if your crew is too sleep-deprived to understand what those levers mean anyway. Not understanding the UI was only a small part in a huge shit show of problems that plagued the ship, and it was hardly the first time this sort of thing happened on that particular ship either.

actionfromafar 2y ago

Training is good, but it's not like design (I mean in how it should be used, not looks) is something which should be ignored. If you have a bad design, you need an awful lot of training to compensate for that. The incident report almost didn't mention design at all, so what are the chances of the problems ever getting addressed?

stackskipton 2y ago
>The incident report almost didn't mention design at all, so what are the chances of the problems ever getting addressed? The fact the Touch Screen shouldn't have been there? Almost zero. EDIT: Apparently the Navy is going to put all mechanical controls back. I was totally wrong. My guess is a bunch of retired flag officers at some defense contractor pitched it and close to retirement flag officers approved it. Maybe in 10 years, they will quietly change it behind closed doors but more than likely, someone has great idea of using Vision Pro to control everything because Heads Up Display or some insane thing they can sell to Navy for big money.

account42 2y ago

If making the primary propulsion some ad-hoc touchscreen control instead of a physical lever is only something you can get to with hindsight then you shouldn't even be anywhere near to a position where you can make that mistake.

figassis 2y ago
The point is that this was likely only one of many poor design decisions that were and will keep being made. I get touch screens are universally bad for operating vehicles or any other machine that requires attention, muscle memory and quick response times, but, if another disaster happens tomorrow for some other design issue not related to touch screens, will he then write another post about how that was the main issue? Because it's not the main issue. The crew where unaware of the physics of the controls. Would this not have happened with physical controls? It seems it is not immediately obvious at any time how much steering is being caused by the propellers or the rudder. Having 2 physical levers positioned differently would not make it more obvious to someone already unaware of this. They woud likely not look for the Gang button even if it were a giant red button. Now if the gang feature were designed (physically or digitally) to always snap back to locked unless some constant pressure is applied (like a spring), maybe this would be imprinted into every crew member.
- pdonis 2y ago
  > Having 2 physical levers positioned differently would not make it more obvious to someone already unaware of this. Yes, it would, because it's so much easier to see. Remember that everybody on that bridge, which includes the Captain and the Officer of the Deck, was unaware of how the throttles were set. Two physical levers would have made it obvious to those people, and they could then have issued the right commands to fix it.
  - jeroenhd 2y ago
    I think making essential controls touch screen based is stupid for a variety of reasons, but I don't think physical levers would've changed the situation. Airplanes have crashed because pilots misinterpreted physical levers, switches, displays, and lights. There have been accidents where a (co)pilot was confused by the lack of power they themselves were physically applying with their hands. You can add synchronised force-feedback levers to every station, but that doesn't matter if your crew is too sleep-deprived to understand what those levers mean anyway. Not understanding the UI was only a small part in a huge shit show of problems that plagued the ship, and it was hardly the first time this sort of thing happened on that particular ship either.