12 ms·

So they're not just going after the iPad, they're also going after the MacBook Air: The Intel version + Touch Cover was repeatedly shown with the regular deskto

by sho_hn 14y ago

So they're not just going after the iPad, they're also going after the MacBook Air: The Intel version + Touch Cover was repeatedly shown with the regular desktop and apps on it, and generally spun as a sort of light laptop. Ambitious, and finally makes sense of their Metro/desktop combo OS strategy to a degree. The hardware to go along with it was a missing puzzle piece, and I guess shows just how important it can be.

kulkarnic 14y ago
Pen+touch+type seems like a great idea. It is something no other manufacturer has tried to do. I think the devil will be in the details, but this sure is interesting, because Apple's strategy is "people should buy multiple devices-- iPad, Macbook Air, Mac Pro...". MSFT wants one device that is a lot more versatile.
- Samuel_Michon 14y ago
  Pen+touch+type seems like a great idea. It is something no other manufacturer has tried to do. Apple Newton MessagePad, 1993. It had a stylus, handwriting recognition, you could use it with just your fingertips, and you could connect an external keyboard. http://www.flickr.com/photos/atow/4314242537/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/atow/4314242537/ That was almost twenty years a go. Newton was a very expensive experiment for Apple, and they have learned the hard way that styluses are not the way to go.
  - jrockway 14y ago
    On the other hand, nearly ever doctor or professional I've seen using a tablet was using a Thinkpad with a pen rather than an iPad with their finger. Screwing around with iTunes and doing work are two completely separate use cases, and it seems that Microsoft is more interested in "the Enterprise" than Apple is. So with that in mind, they're trying to accommodate all use cases. (I did have one doctor that insisted on using an iPad. It took him forever to type notes to the point of it being extremely irritating. Transcribe your notes later!)
    - greedo 14y ago
      My anectdata trumps yours. I took my daughter to the pediatrician yesterday, and the entire practice was equipped with iPads.
      - greedo 14y ago
        -tejaswiy No, I'm in the Midwest, far from the sea. Unless you consider cornfields a sea of sorts.
        tejaswiy 14y ago
        Ahh, too bad. Thanks though :)
    - tejaswiy 14y ago
      My comment is a question for greedo, couldn't reply to him directly: Just curious, was this the Miami Children's Hospital? I actually built their whole check-in on the iPad experience in their hospital :)
    - chadyj 14y ago
      For a great look at iPad use by doctors read this Wired article. "Canada’s Ottawa Hospital uses close to 3,000 iPads, and they’re popping up everywhere — in the lab coats of attending physicians, residents, and pharmacists. " http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2011/12/apple-ipad-doctors/all/ http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2011/12/apple-ipad-doct...
      - jrockway 14y ago
        http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
    - Bud 14y ago
      "Screwing around with iTunes"? You've either both not worked in any large companies lately AND never really used an iPad, or you are just blinded by platform bias. The fact is that iPads are being massively adopted in Fortune 500 companies. And I can assure you that those users are not "screwing around with iTunes". In fact, iTunes doesn't even exist on the iPad, so you don't really know what you are talking about, at all. (edit: Two instant downvotes on this, but I notice nobody is refuting my facts.)
  - JumpCrisscross 14y ago
    The lesson they may have learned was 1993 was not the right time to launch a tablet. The iPad wasn't the first swipe at a tablet, either.
  - aik 14y ago
    And it failed. I think the point is that it's nothing that anyone has tried recently, as the technology just hasn't been good enough. We're in a completely different world than the one in 1993. The question now is whether the technology today is good enough to be usable. No one else has tried it recently, meaning common understanding is that even today it's too complicated/not good enough. Until now.
    - Samuel_Michon 14y ago
      Microsoft has been trying to sell stylus based tablets for years, and they never stopped: Windows for pen based computers, Windows XP Tablet PC Edition, UMPC, Courier, Slate PC, etc etc. I'm all for experimenting by releasing products in the wild, hoping that the next iteration will finally find its market. But seriously, it's getting a little ridiculous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Tablet_PC#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Tablet_PC#History
    - snowwrestler 14y ago
      Computerized handwriting recognition will never be good enough because even people have trouble recognizing handwriting--even their own. And once the recognition fails, you're left with computer text that needs to be corrected. How? With a keyboard. So most people just gravitate toward using the keyboard in the first place. A stylus is better for drawing (see: Wacom) but most people don't draw.
      - stcredzero 14y ago
        Computerized handwriting recognition will never be good enough Yes, but making eInk good enough is just a matter of getting latency down low enough.
      - hcurtiss 14y ago
        Onenote is a really great compromise. The handwriting remains, and it converts to text in the background. It's not perfect, but it doesn't have to be. As a TabletPC user and a lawyer, I've been waiting for this form factor for years. IMHO, the only reason the TabletPC didn't thrive is (i) short battery life, and (ii) weight/size. This machine is, to me, the great promise.
  - jsherry 14y ago
    Not everyone agrees. This one is rated pretty highly and apparently selling quite well: http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Touchscreen-Including-Motorola-BlackBerry/dp/B004GCJEZU http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Touchscreen-Including-Mot...
  - InclinedPlane 14y ago
    That was an era of different technology. Stylus alone (resistive touch) is not a good general purpose input system but works really well for inputting hand writing or drawing. Capacitive touch lacks fine resolution so it's not good for drawing but it's fantastic for UI because it supports multi-touch. Today we don't have to be shackled by the technological limits that held the Newton back. The Surface has both types of touch sensors so it can match the appropriate sensor to the appropriate use (drawing/writing or touch-based UI). Also, modern mobile computers have vastly more processing power and storage capabilities so, ironically, handwriting recognition is not necessary. The raw input can simply be stored away (as a vector graphic, perhaps, or even just as raw pixels). Also, the general pattern of "someone tried that once, and they failed, so nobody should ever do that" is a really terrible way to go about engineering. Wile E. Coyote should not be a roll model. Just because someone failed at something similar. Just because YOU failed at something similar, doesn't mean you should give up on the whole idea.
    - stcredzero 14y ago
      Wile E. Coyote makes for an interesting roll model, considering that he's not round at all, but his body does seem to be able to adapt to a rolling mode when enough force is applied. Also, he is a SU-per Geeen-ius! I agree, that a good stylus would be a good addition to a tablet. A crappy stylus is worthless, though. It has to be a good one.
    - ConstantineXVI 14y ago
      Being pedantic; the stylus used here (and in the Galaxy Note, etc) isn't working off a resistive screen, but an active digitizer (likely N-Trig or Wacom).
      - forgottenpaswrd 14y ago
        The time delay in Galaxy Note is unacceptable for Apple(and for me, I used it a lot and I hated it). You could do a responsible program on a Nintendo DS with 40MHz. Lazy people.
  - esolyt 14y ago
    Stylus is optional on Microsoft's tablet though. You can use the tablet perfectly without a stylus. You may choose to provide some inputs by using a stylus.
    - simplexion 14y ago
      Yes, Stylus is optional on my Galaxy Note. I thought I wouldn't use it, turns out I am constantly pulling it out. I think having the option to use a stylus is a fantastic idea.
  - timtadh 14y ago
    Let us not forget the Apple Newton Emate 300: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMate_300 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMate_300 Probably the best computer ever designed for children. I used one myself in school from 4th grade through 8th grade when I upgraded to a "real" laptop. The main reason for the upgrade: I couldn't program on the emate. Other than that it was in every way superior: Instant on, touch, nice keyboard, no distraction interface, usable in all lighting conditions, ect... Now of course people would sneer at it since it didn't have any form of internet. However, at the time my teachers were more comfortable with it in the classroom due to those limitations.
    - parkan 14y ago
      Actually, you could program for the eMate (NewtonScript, which is surprisingly powerful -- you do need a mac to build the app but you could write code on the device itself, there were apps for this), and you could connect to the internet, too -- I had a PCMCIA ethernet card with a pop-out jack in mine. I fondly remember printing to a HP laser printer via the IR port in the library, bypassing normal printing limits.
  - Produce 14y ago
    For crying out loud. Ofcourse styluses are the way to go if you want any degree of accuracy. The difference between yesterday and today is the difference between resistive and capacitive touch screens. In other words, the new type is far more sensitive and doesn't require having to tap a spot ten times to get it to register. Fingers are still good if you're doing things where accuracy is not important - e.g. tapping the screen to pause/play a video.
    - regularfry 14y ago
      Good resistive screens are as responsive as capacitive, and they don't need a conductive stylus so you can easily flip between accurate and inaccurate modes. Seriously, if you get a chance to play with a Nokia N900, you'll see what I mean.
  - podperson 14y ago
    I'm as big a fan of the Newton as anyone (I still have a Newton MP2000 in my nightstand -- I think it even has good batteries in it -- but there's a qualitative difference between something like this and the Newton (and arguing you could use the Newton with just your fingers is a stretch -- it required strong nails and considerable pressure). I'm also a big fan of the iPad, but this definitely looks like something _worth criticizing_ (to paraphrase Alan Kay). I think a big problem with this device as conceived is that most of the time I do not use my tablet neatly on a table, so the keyboard/cover is a cute gimmick, but only really of interest in limited cases (in much the same way as all the different keyboard options for the iPad, some quite clever, have proven a waste of time for me).
  - kulkarnic 14y ago
    Yeah, so what? If you read HCI papers from the 90s (it's what I do for a job-- I'm a PhD student in HCI), you'll see that a lot of very respected researchers claimed that speech technology is not useful (their claim is well-founded: it is slow, environmental noise is unavoidable, what to say is often not obvious, and there's the Midas problem). But, here we are, with people praising Siri. It's how technology works-- every input modality is useful for some tasks, and at some level of maturity. Dismissing technological potential based purely on past technology is short-sighted. [For examples of how Pen+touch is a good idea see http://billbuxton.com/Pen+TouchUIST.pdf http://billbuxton.com/Pen+TouchUIST.pdf. Add type, and it could be powerful indeed]
    - Samuel_Michon 14y ago
      For what it's worth: I'm not entirely convinced that Siri will ever work as advertised. I think the new car smell is gone and lately I've read nothing but complaints. Apple really needs to step it up. I expected more of the iOS 6 announcement, like a Siri API for third party apps and better communication between apps. That is what's needed to even come close to the 80s Knowledge Navigator idea. I mean, the dictation part is nice, but otherwise, I haven't found much use for Siri.
      - jawngee 14y ago
        I use Siri constantly: - change playlists when when I'm working out or biking - set the alarm when I go to bed - reminders (a lot) - the weather - looking up something on wikipedia and imdb - and sending short sms messages I'd say my use has grown over the last few weeks as I'm biking a lot more. There was an initial trust issue, and I still sometimes have this weird feeling of being on the spot when I'm dictating to Siri, but otherwise best "app" on the phone for me.
        Mythbusters 14y ago
        sample size of 1.
        14y ago
  - kailashbadu 14y ago
    All that experiment proved is early 90s was not a right time for technology like Newton. Nothing more.
    - mkr-hn 14y ago
      I'm sure someone very early in human civilization thought fire was unviable because you could only get it from lightning. Who's going to go out in a thunderstorm to secure a fire before the rain puts it out? It'll never catch on.
  - forgottenpaswrd 14y ago
    "they have learned the hard way that styluses are not the way to go." No, what they learned is that requiring an active matrix behind the screen consuming battery and weighting more(and adding $1000 per device in terms of licenses), is not the way to go. But I'm pretty sure that Apple is considering it with other technologies(like the same touch tech they use today with hi res for stylus). Not as the main input, of course, but for drawing like you can do on paper. This is the single most important thing I need on a tablet as an engineer-designer, drawing sketches on a tablet so I don't need paper.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- srkiranraj 14y ago
  I dont see any reference to pen input in surface. Is it true that Surface has pen input too ?
  - iNate2000 14y ago
    The "Pro" version - with the Ivy Bridge processor - will have a pen...
- seclorum 14y ago
  I'm reminded of my old collection of Dauphin DTR-1's: https://www.google.at/search?q=dauphin+dtr-1&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&tbm=isch https://www.google.at/search?q=dauphin+dtr-1&um=1&hl... We've come a long way since those days .. but then again, maybe its the same, just .. shinier.
mattiask 14y ago
"We heard you like tablets, so we took your tablet and made it a laptop so you can pretend it's a tablet while you're using Windows!"
- rudasn 14y ago
  I don't own any sort of tablet or ultrabook (eg. mac air) or e-reader (kindle) because I don't like throwing money around. What I want is: - Read ebooks/pdfs - Browse the web - Work (a text editor and git) Ideally I would also like to: - Download & watch videos/movies - Something to hook-up to my TV There is nothing in the market that can do these things. I could get a Kindle for reading, an iPad for browsing the web, and an ultrabook for work. This device is something I would buy (assuming a reasonable price) but the one drawback I see is Windows. Maybe Windows nowadays is a lot better than before and maybe it'll give it a chance. It all depends on the pricing.
  - dangoor 14y ago
    > There is nothing in the market that can do these things. Yes, there is... if that's the complete set of things. The iPad can do this. ebooks/pdfs, browsing, videos, TV hookup - all there and straightforward. text editor and git (GitHub, in this case): http://worqshop.com/ http://worqshop.com/ there are also other editors that have SFTP and SSH programs. I'm not saying you should replace your current computer with an iPad. I'm saying that based on the list you've given here you could.
    - rudasn 14y ago
      I'm not looking to replace my primary computer. I'm looking for a secondary device (one device, not 2 or 3) that can do a handful of things that I most often need. The main reason I want to hook a device like that with my TV is so that I can download and watch movies (from torrents). AFAIK you cannot do that on the iPad. I'm I mistaken?
      - 286c8cb04bda 14y ago
heyitsnick 14y ago
It strikes me as an entirely natural development and something that will appeal to many consumers. I get the feeling Apple have always wanted iPad to be an extra - an extension to the desktop experience. But the divisions between phone, tablet, "ultralight laptop" and "main laptop" are arbitrary and increasingly opaque. Many people are starting to see tablets and real possible replacements: for light users, it handles 90% of their computer usage (internet browser, video and photo viewing). Even for "serious" computer users, tablets offer many advantages. They are quiet, keep cool, look good, super portable, and last a long time. People seem quite content with the lower processing power if they afforded these big pluses. This Surface with integrated keyboard and support for regular win 8 apps could take it the extra 10% for a lot of people.
- jcitme 14y ago
  I do wonder a bit, how will this blurring of the laptop/tablet line affect their cash cow, Microsoft Office? The business world is trained to believe: they NEED office, and office == productivity. The iPad, long without these apps, challenged this ideal. How would the tablet world spilling into the laptop world affect Office sales...
  - kailashbadu 14y ago
    For people who want productivity software suits like Office from lighter computers, they have online versions of Office.
  - uvTwitch 14y ago
    Probably not too badly, considering this tablet will likely be inescapably bundled with Office, if it isn't a core part of the system by now.
  - sukuriant 14y ago
    I believe I heard in the video that Office is bundled with the RT version of the laptop Necessary disclaimer: Microsoft employee Addendum: I did not work on this machine, and did not know about it (I don't think?) until today.
  - 14y ago
cryptozeus 14y ago
Does the color of the windows and background changes to the color of the keyboard as soon as we attach it ? reply
- machinagod 14y ago
  Yes, they showed it on the demo it seems.
  - cryptozeus 14y ago
    That is pretty cool experience
- Metrop0218 14y ago
  Wow, that's a nice touch
chj 14y ago
I don't think MS is going after MBA. sure, keyboard may be nicer than bt keyboard for ipad, but that doesn't make it a laptop replacement. the os -- windows rt -- may be as restrictive as ipad is, quite different from the windows for desktop. There is nothing inspiring in this product, at least they didn't answer a question: is there something new we can do with this tablet?
- sho_hn 14y ago
  You're making a bunch of key mistakes there: a) Only the ARM version is running Windows RT. The Intel version I wrote about is using "Windows 8 Pro", which contains the regular Windows desktop. b) A BT keyboard for the iPad is something you need to select separately, and schlepp around inconveniently. A cover goes together with the device. Stuff like this matters. As for whether it's doing anything new, dunno. The thing is that with products like this, it's a matter of degrees and refinement - at some point you cross a threshold and a concept works. That's why the iPad works, but Tablet PCs didn't. The product most similar to the Intel-powered Surfcace + Touch Cover is the Android Transformer Prime with the optional keyboard dock. But the keyboard dock isn't as svelte as the Touch Cover, and Android doesn't have the application base of desktop Windows when used as a laptop replacement. And yet the Prime garnered a lot of interest. Microsoft seems to be in a unique position to offer this refined version of the idea. Will anyone want it? Time will tell.
  - mfarris 14y ago
    The iPad doesn't come with a BT keyboard, but there are quite a few keyboard/cover combos available. It's not something that you have to "schlepp around inconveniently": http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-31747_7-20091329-243/keyboarding-your-ipad-best-keyboard-cases/ http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-31747_7-20091329-243/keyboardin...
    - sho_hn 14y ago
      But these all look rather clunky and unattractive, and the point about needing to select among them still stands. They'll always be niche accessoires for that reason. The Touch Cover is a sanctioned, obvious choice. It's simple to grok. The iPad doesn't have that yet. It doesn't even matter if the clunky-looking ones perform better, or serve an edge case better. This is Microsoft learning from Apple. What you're doing is a role-reversal of the situation where anti-Apple folks point to some obscure niche solution as equivalent to Apple integration.
NormM 14y ago
This would have been great a couple of years ago, but it's too late to bring out something that's almost as good as an iPad, but without the momentum or ecosystem. This was clearly designed by people who still don't understand why the iPad has been such a big success, and think the world is just waiting for an iPad running Windows. This is a desperation move, like the Zune, and will have the same effect on third party tablet hardware partners.
- untog 14y ago
  but it's too late to bring out something that's almost as good as an iPad, but without the momentum or ecosystem Are you suggesting that Windows doesn't have an ecosystem?
  - rst 14y ago
    Desktop Windows does, but stock windows apps generally don't work well in tablet mode without adaptation. Metro (in the form of Windows Phone 7) is lagging. Windows 8 seems to be something like the two of them running on the same kernel, but unless there are apps on both "sides" that synergize well, the whole may be less than the sum of its parts.
    - untog 14y ago
      The intel version at least will be able to run all apps- and the keyboard has a multitouch trackpad. UIs will need to change, for sure. But as long as it's possible to port large portions of the codebase of existing Windows apps (see the demo of Lightroom they showed), there should be a lot of options.
      - greedo 14y ago
        Call me a cynic, but there's more to a good app than refactoring an existing one with a new UI.
      - NormM 14y ago
        The RT version reminds me of the PC Junior, with its chiclet keyboard, and has no legacy apps. You're right about the Pro version, but it seems to me that's designed for people who need a laptop. Those people will buy a laptop.
Too 14y ago
Finally makes sense? The "missing" puzzle piece was just a matter of time. Laptops are getting thinner and tablets are getting faster, now they are about to blend into one and microsoft was brave enough to make the change in software before the hardware was done.

by sho_hn 14y ago

kulkarnic 14y ago

Pen+touch+type seems like a great idea. It is something no other manufacturer has tried to do. I think the devil will be in the details, but this sure is interesting, because Apple's strategy is "people should buy multiple devices-- iPad, Macbook Air, Mac Pro...". MSFT wants one device that is a lot more versatile.

Samuel_Michon 14y ago
Pen+touch+type seems like a great idea. It is something no other manufacturer has tried to do. Apple Newton MessagePad, 1993. It had a stylus, handwriting recognition, you could use it with just your fingertips, and you could connect an external keyboard. http://www.flickr.com/photos/atow/4314242537/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/atow/4314242537/ That was almost twenty years a go. Newton was a very expensive experiment for Apple, and they have learned the hard way that styluses are not the way to go.
- jrockway 14y ago
  On the other hand, nearly ever doctor or professional I've seen using a tablet was using a Thinkpad with a pen rather than an iPad with their finger. Screwing around with iTunes and doing work are two completely separate use cases, and it seems that Microsoft is more interested in "the Enterprise" than Apple is. So with that in mind, they're trying to accommodate all use cases. (I did have one doctor that insisted on using an iPad. It took him forever to type notes to the point of it being extremely irritating. Transcribe your notes later!)
  - greedo 14y ago
    My anectdata trumps yours. I took my daughter to the pediatrician yesterday, and the entire practice was equipped with iPads.
    - greedo 14y ago
      -tejaswiy No, I'm in the Midwest, far from the sea. Unless you consider cornfields a sea of sorts.
      - tejaswiy 14y ago
        Ahh, too bad. Thanks though :)
  - tejaswiy 14y ago
    My comment is a question for greedo, couldn't reply to him directly: Just curious, was this the Miami Children's Hospital? I actually built their whole check-in on the iPad experience in their hospital :)
  - chadyj 14y ago
    For a great look at iPad use by doctors read this Wired article. "Canada’s Ottawa Hospital uses close to 3,000 iPads, and they’re popping up everywhere — in the lab coats of attending physicians, residents, and pharmacists. " http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2011/12/apple-ipad-doctors/all/ http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2011/12/apple-ipad-doct...
    - jrockway 14y ago
      http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
  - Bud 14y ago
    "Screwing around with iTunes"? You've either both not worked in any large companies lately AND never really used an iPad, or you are just blinded by platform bias. The fact is that iPads are being massively adopted in Fortune 500 companies. And I can assure you that those users are not "screwing around with iTunes". In fact, iTunes doesn't even exist on the iPad, so you don't really know what you are talking about, at all. (edit: Two instant downvotes on this, but I notice nobody is refuting my facts.)
- JumpCrisscross 14y ago
  The lesson they may have learned was 1993 was not the right time to launch a tablet. The iPad wasn't the first swipe at a tablet, either.
- aik 14y ago
  And it failed. I think the point is that it's nothing that anyone has tried recently, as the technology just hasn't been good enough. We're in a completely different world than the one in 1993. The question now is whether the technology today is good enough to be usable. No one else has tried it recently, meaning common understanding is that even today it's too complicated/not good enough. Until now.
  - Samuel_Michon 14y ago
    Microsoft has been trying to sell stylus based tablets for years, and they never stopped: Windows for pen based computers, Windows XP Tablet PC Edition, UMPC, Courier, Slate PC, etc etc. I'm all for experimenting by releasing products in the wild, hoping that the next iteration will finally find its market. But seriously, it's getting a little ridiculous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Tablet_PC#History http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Tablet_PC#History
  - snowwrestler 14y ago
    Computerized handwriting recognition will never be good enough because even people have trouble recognizing handwriting--even their own. And once the recognition fails, you're left with computer text that needs to be corrected. How? With a keyboard. So most people just gravitate toward using the keyboard in the first place. A stylus is better for drawing (see: Wacom) but most people don't draw.
    - stcredzero 14y ago
      Computerized handwriting recognition will never be good enough Yes, but making eInk good enough is just a matter of getting latency down low enough.
    - hcurtiss 14y ago
      Onenote is a really great compromise. The handwriting remains, and it converts to text in the background. It's not perfect, but it doesn't have to be. As a TabletPC user and a lawyer, I've been waiting for this form factor for years. IMHO, the only reason the TabletPC didn't thrive is (i) short battery life, and (ii) weight/size. This machine is, to me, the great promise.
- jsherry 14y ago
  Not everyone agrees. This one is rated pretty highly and apparently selling quite well: http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Touchscreen-Including-Motorola-BlackBerry/dp/B004GCJEZU http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Touchscreen-Including-Mot...
- InclinedPlane 14y ago
  That was an era of different technology. Stylus alone (resistive touch) is not a good general purpose input system but works really well for inputting hand writing or drawing. Capacitive touch lacks fine resolution so it's not good for drawing but it's fantastic for UI because it supports multi-touch. Today we don't have to be shackled by the technological limits that held the Newton back. The Surface has both types of touch sensors so it can match the appropriate sensor to the appropriate use (drawing/writing or touch-based UI). Also, modern mobile computers have vastly more processing power and storage capabilities so, ironically, handwriting recognition is not necessary. The raw input can simply be stored away (as a vector graphic, perhaps, or even just as raw pixels). Also, the general pattern of "someone tried that once, and they failed, so nobody should ever do that" is a really terrible way to go about engineering. Wile E. Coyote should not be a roll model. Just because someone failed at something similar. Just because YOU failed at something similar, doesn't mean you should give up on the whole idea.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    Wile E. Coyote makes for an interesting roll model, considering that he's not round at all, but his body does seem to be able to adapt to a rolling mode when enough force is applied. Also, he is a SU-per Geeen-ius! I agree, that a good stylus would be a good addition to a tablet. A crappy stylus is worthless, though. It has to be a good one.
  - ConstantineXVI 14y ago
    Being pedantic; the stylus used here (and in the Galaxy Note, etc) isn't working off a resistive screen, but an active digitizer (likely N-Trig or Wacom).
    - forgottenpaswrd 14y ago
      The time delay in Galaxy Note is unacceptable for Apple(and for me, I used it a lot and I hated it). You could do a responsible program on a Nintendo DS with 40MHz. Lazy people.
- esolyt 14y ago
  Stylus is optional on Microsoft's tablet though. You can use the tablet perfectly without a stylus. You may choose to provide some inputs by using a stylus.
  - simplexion 14y ago
    Yes, Stylus is optional on my Galaxy Note. I thought I wouldn't use it, turns out I am constantly pulling it out. I think having the option to use a stylus is a fantastic idea.
- timtadh 14y ago
  Let us not forget the Apple Newton Emate 300: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMate_300 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMate_300 Probably the best computer ever designed for children. I used one myself in school from 4th grade through 8th grade when I upgraded to a "real" laptop. The main reason for the upgrade: I couldn't program on the emate. Other than that it was in every way superior: Instant on, touch, nice keyboard, no distraction interface, usable in all lighting conditions, ect... Now of course people would sneer at it since it didn't have any form of internet. However, at the time my teachers were more comfortable with it in the classroom due to those limitations.
  - parkan 14y ago
    Actually, you could program for the eMate (NewtonScript, which is surprisingly powerful -- you do need a mac to build the app but you could write code on the device itself, there were apps for this), and you could connect to the internet, too -- I had a PCMCIA ethernet card with a pop-out jack in mine. I fondly remember printing to a HP laser printer via the IR port in the library, bypassing normal printing limits.
- Produce 14y ago
  For crying out loud. Ofcourse styluses are the way to go if you want any degree of accuracy. The difference between yesterday and today is the difference between resistive and capacitive touch screens. In other words, the new type is far more sensitive and doesn't require having to tap a spot ten times to get it to register. Fingers are still good if you're doing things where accuracy is not important - e.g. tapping the screen to pause/play a video.
  - regularfry 14y ago
    Good resistive screens are as responsive as capacitive, and they don't need a conductive stylus so you can easily flip between accurate and inaccurate modes. Seriously, if you get a chance to play with a Nokia N900, you'll see what I mean.
- podperson 14y ago
  I'm as big a fan of the Newton as anyone (I still have a Newton MP2000 in my nightstand -- I think it even has good batteries in it -- but there's a qualitative difference between something like this and the Newton (and arguing you could use the Newton with just your fingers is a stretch -- it required strong nails and considerable pressure). I'm also a big fan of the iPad, but this definitely looks like something _worth criticizing_ (to paraphrase Alan Kay). I think a big problem with this device as conceived is that most of the time I do not use my tablet neatly on a table, so the keyboard/cover is a cute gimmick, but only really of interest in limited cases (in much the same way as all the different keyboard options for the iPad, some quite clever, have proven a waste of time for me).
- kulkarnic 14y ago
  Yeah, so what? If you read HCI papers from the 90s (it's what I do for a job-- I'm a PhD student in HCI), you'll see that a lot of very respected researchers claimed that speech technology is not useful (their claim is well-founded: it is slow, environmental noise is unavoidable, what to say is often not obvious, and there's the Midas problem). But, here we are, with people praising Siri. It's how technology works-- every input modality is useful for some tasks, and at some level of maturity. Dismissing technological potential based purely on past technology is short-sighted. [For examples of how Pen+touch is a good idea see http://billbuxton.com/Pen+TouchUIST.pdf http://billbuxton.com/Pen+TouchUIST.pdf. Add type, and it could be powerful indeed]
  - Samuel_Michon 14y ago
    For what it's worth: I'm not entirely convinced that Siri will ever work as advertised. I think the new car smell is gone and lately I've read nothing but complaints. Apple really needs to step it up. I expected more of the iOS 6 announcement, like a Siri API for third party apps and better communication between apps. That is what's needed to even come close to the 80s Knowledge Navigator idea. I mean, the dictation part is nice, but otherwise, I haven't found much use for Siri.
    - jawngee 14y ago
      I use Siri constantly: - change playlists when when I'm working out or biking - set the alarm when I go to bed - reminders (a lot) - the weather - looking up something on wikipedia and imdb - and sending short sms messages I'd say my use has grown over the last few weeks as I'm biking a lot more. There was an initial trust issue, and I still sometimes have this weird feeling of being on the spot when I'm dictating to Siri, but otherwise best "app" on the phone for me.
      - Mythbusters 14y ago
        sample size of 1.
        14y ago
- kailashbadu 14y ago
  All that experiment proved is early 90s was not a right time for technology like Newton. Nothing more.
  - mkr-hn 14y ago
    I'm sure someone very early in human civilization thought fire was unviable because you could only get it from lightning. Who's going to go out in a thunderstorm to secure a fire before the rain puts it out? It'll never catch on.
- forgottenpaswrd 14y ago
  "they have learned the hard way that styluses are not the way to go." No, what they learned is that requiring an active matrix behind the screen consuming battery and weighting more(and adding $1000 per device in terms of licenses), is not the way to go. But I'm pretty sure that Apple is considering it with other technologies(like the same touch tech they use today with hi res for stylus). Not as the main input, of course, but for drawing like you can do on paper. This is the single most important thing I need on a tablet as an engineer-designer, drawing sketches on a tablet so I don't need paper.
deleted 14y ago
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srkiranraj 14y ago
I dont see any reference to pen input in surface. Is it true that Surface has pen input too ?
- iNate2000 14y ago
  The "Pro" version - with the Ivy Bridge processor - will have a pen...
seclorum 14y ago
I'm reminded of my old collection of Dauphin DTR-1's: https://www.google.at/search?q=dauphin+dtr-1&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&tbm=isch https://www.google.at/search?q=dauphin+dtr-1&um=1&hl... We've come a long way since those days .. but then again, maybe its the same, just .. shinier.

mattiask 14y ago

"We heard you like tablets, so we took your tablet and made it a laptop so you can pretend it's a tablet while you're using Windows!"

rudasn 14y ago
I don't own any sort of tablet or ultrabook (eg. mac air) or e-reader (kindle) because I don't like throwing money around. What I want is: - Read ebooks/pdfs - Browse the web - Work (a text editor and git) Ideally I would also like to: - Download & watch videos/movies - Something to hook-up to my TV There is nothing in the market that can do these things. I could get a Kindle for reading, an iPad for browsing the web, and an ultrabook for work. This device is something I would buy (assuming a reasonable price) but the one drawback I see is Windows. Maybe Windows nowadays is a lot better than before and maybe it'll give it a chance. It all depends on the pricing.
- dangoor 14y ago
  > There is nothing in the market that can do these things. Yes, there is... if that's the complete set of things. The iPad can do this. ebooks/pdfs, browsing, videos, TV hookup - all there and straightforward. text editor and git (GitHub, in this case): http://worqshop.com/ http://worqshop.com/ there are also other editors that have SFTP and SSH programs. I'm not saying you should replace your current computer with an iPad. I'm saying that based on the list you've given here you could.
  - rudasn 14y ago
    I'm not looking to replace my primary computer. I'm looking for a secondary device (one device, not 2 or 3) that can do a handful of things that I most often need. The main reason I want to hook a device like that with my TV is so that I can download and watch movies (from torrents). AFAIK you cannot do that on the iPad. I'm I mistaken?
    - 286c8cb04bda 14y ago

heyitsnick 14y ago

It strikes me as an entirely natural development and something that will appeal to many consumers. I get the feeling Apple have always wanted iPad to be an extra - an extension to the desktop experience. But the divisions between phone, tablet, "ultralight laptop" and "main laptop" are arbitrary and increasingly opaque. Many people are starting to see tablets and real possible replacements: for light users, it handles 90% of their computer usage (internet browser, video and photo viewing). Even for "serious" computer users, tablets offer many advantages. They are quiet, keep cool, look good, super portable, and last a long time. People seem quite content with the lower processing power if they afforded these big pluses. This Surface with integrated keyboard and support for regular win 8 apps could take it the extra 10% for a lot of people.

jcitme 14y ago
I do wonder a bit, how will this blurring of the laptop/tablet line affect their cash cow, Microsoft Office? The business world is trained to believe: they NEED office, and office == productivity. The iPad, long without these apps, challenged this ideal. How would the tablet world spilling into the laptop world affect Office sales...
- kailashbadu 14y ago
  For people who want productivity software suits like Office from lighter computers, they have online versions of Office.
- uvTwitch 14y ago
  Probably not too badly, considering this tablet will likely be inescapably bundled with Office, if it isn't a core part of the system by now.
- sukuriant 14y ago
  I believe I heard in the video that Office is bundled with the RT version of the laptop Necessary disclaimer: Microsoft employee Addendum: I did not work on this machine, and did not know about it (I don't think?) until today.
- 14y ago

cryptozeus 14y ago

Does the color of the windows and background changes to the color of the keyboard as soon as we attach it ? reply

machinagod 14y ago
Yes, they showed it on the demo it seems.
- cryptozeus 14y ago
  That is pretty cool experience
Metrop0218 14y ago
Wow, that's a nice touch

chj 14y ago

I don't think MS is going after MBA. sure, keyboard may be nicer than bt keyboard for ipad, but that doesn't make it a laptop replacement. the os -- windows rt -- may be as restrictive as ipad is, quite different from the windows for desktop. There is nothing inspiring in this product, at least they didn't answer a question: is there something new we can do with this tablet?

sho_hn 14y ago
You're making a bunch of key mistakes there: a) Only the ARM version is running Windows RT. The Intel version I wrote about is using "Windows 8 Pro", which contains the regular Windows desktop. b) A BT keyboard for the iPad is something you need to select separately, and schlepp around inconveniently. A cover goes together with the device. Stuff like this matters. As for whether it's doing anything new, dunno. The thing is that with products like this, it's a matter of degrees and refinement - at some point you cross a threshold and a concept works. That's why the iPad works, but Tablet PCs didn't. The product most similar to the Intel-powered Surfcace + Touch Cover is the Android Transformer Prime with the optional keyboard dock. But the keyboard dock isn't as svelte as the Touch Cover, and Android doesn't have the application base of desktop Windows when used as a laptop replacement. And yet the Prime garnered a lot of interest. Microsoft seems to be in a unique position to offer this refined version of the idea. Will anyone want it? Time will tell.
- mfarris 14y ago
  The iPad doesn't come with a BT keyboard, but there are quite a few keyboard/cover combos available. It's not something that you have to "schlepp around inconveniently": http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-31747_7-20091329-243/keyboarding-your-ipad-best-keyboard-cases/ http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-31747_7-20091329-243/keyboardin...
  - sho_hn 14y ago
    But these all look rather clunky and unattractive, and the point about needing to select among them still stands. They'll always be niche accessoires for that reason. The Touch Cover is a sanctioned, obvious choice. It's simple to grok. The iPad doesn't have that yet. It doesn't even matter if the clunky-looking ones perform better, or serve an edge case better. This is Microsoft learning from Apple. What you're doing is a role-reversal of the situation where anti-Apple folks point to some obscure niche solution as equivalent to Apple integration.

NormM 14y ago

This would have been great a couple of years ago, but it's too late to bring out something that's almost as good as an iPad, but without the momentum or ecosystem. This was clearly designed by people who still don't understand why the iPad has been such a big success, and think the world is just waiting for an iPad running Windows. This is a desperation move, like the Zune, and will have the same effect on third party tablet hardware partners.

untog 14y ago
but it's too late to bring out something that's almost as good as an iPad, but without the momentum or ecosystem Are you suggesting that Windows doesn't have an ecosystem?
- rst 14y ago
  Desktop Windows does, but stock windows apps generally don't work well in tablet mode without adaptation. Metro (in the form of Windows Phone 7) is lagging. Windows 8 seems to be something like the two of them running on the same kernel, but unless there are apps on both "sides" that synergize well, the whole may be less than the sum of its parts.
  - untog 14y ago
    The intel version at least will be able to run all apps- and the keyboard has a multitouch trackpad. UIs will need to change, for sure. But as long as it's possible to port large portions of the codebase of existing Windows apps (see the demo of Lightroom they showed), there should be a lot of options.
    - greedo 14y ago
      Call me a cynic, but there's more to a good app than refactoring an existing one with a new UI.
    - NormM 14y ago
      The RT version reminds me of the PC Junior, with its chiclet keyboard, and has no legacy apps. You're right about the Pro version, but it seems to me that's designed for people who need a laptop. Those people will buy a laptop.

Too 14y ago

Finally makes sense? The "missing" puzzle piece was just a matter of time. Laptops are getting thinner and tablets are getting faster, now they are about to blend into one and microsoft was brave enough to make the change in software before the hardware was done.