2 ms·

> And the knowledge of `M-x sql-connect` came to you how? In a dream? Commands in Emacs are undiscoverable unless you know what to look for. It's one command t

> And the knowledge of `M-x sql-connect` came to you how? In a dream? Commands in Emacs are undiscoverable unless you know what to look for. It's one command that implements autocomplete which gives you access to the entire system. > It happens only because you're used to Emacs and Vim, That's my entire point! I learned the majority of Emacs and Vim commands well back in the mid-90s. > and unused to an IDE. Objectively not true, if you had read the entire comment. > People pretend they are not there because of this false notion that only those two are the sign of a great programmer. I think you have a chip on your shoulder about this. You read my post as some sort of attack on IDEs so responded with an attack of your own. My point was about little frictions all adding up. Sure, there's a steep learning curve in learning a programmable editor, but you only climb that curve once. It just takes much less memory to remember 4 verbs and maybe 6 nouns in Vim to perform navigation, than learning 4x6=24 shortcuts for similar functionality in Jetbrains/Eclipse/Vs/VSCode/etc. I'm just explaining why needing to remember fewer things is the path of least resistance for me; whatever argument you are talking about involving signs of great programmers is beyond the scope of what I am saying.

troupo 2y ago
> It's one command that implements And you know this command how? You discovered it how? > That's my entire point! I learned the majority of Emacs and Vim commands well back in the mid-90s. Indeed. And now you complain about friction in IDEs because you refuse to learn IDEs to the same extent. > My point was about little frictions all adding up. Yes, yes they do. And I find there are significantly more frictions in Emacs and Vim than in a modern IDE. The only reason you don't see them is that you've already learned Emacs/Vim > It just takes much less memory to remember 4 verbs and maybe 6 nouns in Vim to perform navigation, than learning 4x6=24 shortcuts Wat. I don't even know what these random numbers mean, and where you got them from. And how we went from functionality and capabilities to navigation. > I'm just explaining why needing to remember fewer things Thing is, you don't remember "fewer things" with Emacs/Vim. You end up remembering about the same, or greater number of things on top of significantly worse functionality. Like you pretend that remembering dozens of various commands to type into `M-x` is somehow easier, and requires less memory than remembering the common shortcuts for common actions and falling back to Cmd+P(VS Code)/Cmd+Shift+A(Intelli J) to look up actions you rarely use.
- lelanthran 2y ago
  Why the antagonism? Programmable editors don't work for you, fine. Why make personal attacks on me, like this: > you pretend that I'm not pretending anything. > Thing is, you don't remember "fewer things" with Emacs/Vim. You end up remembering about the same, or greater number of things Not true. Like I said, I use an IDE daily, and there's much more to remember to get the same functionality that I get out of (for example) Vim. It's easier for me to remember (for example) 10 nouns that can be combined with 10 verbs than to memorise 100 shortcuts. You may find it easier to memorise 100 shortcuts rather than 10 verbs and 10 nouns, but I am certainly not pretending when I tell you that I find it easier to remember 20 things rather than 100 things.
  - troupo 2y ago
    > It's easier for me to remember (for example) 10 nouns that can be combined with 10 verbs than to memorise 100 shortcuts. 1. There are no nouns or verbs in Vim. There's a haphazardly built combination of letters that are laboriously explained as some grand design. 2. You keep coming up with random numbers that make no sense and pretend (yes, pretend) that they are somehow true and relevant I didn't memorise 100 shortcuts. The only reason you struggle to get the same functionality out of an IDE is that you don't want to invest as much time and energy into learning it as you did with emacs/vim. There's nothing inherently easier about memorising `M-x sql-connect` or 20 random letters in Vim than learning basic functionality and shortcuts of an IDE.
    - lelanthran 2y ago
      > 1. There are no nouns or verbs in Vim. Yes, there is. Since your entire argument is predicated on a false premise, maybe you should stop digging at this point?
    - vldx 2y ago
      I agree. Honestly, I’m proficient with vim/emacs, but I’ve been using JetBrains for ~13 years and don’t want to sound boastful, but I’m pretty sure I’ll run circles around non-trivial amount of vim users in terms of productivity/efficiency/raw text editing. The amount of time I’ve put in customizing my workflow is stupid. The false dichotomy that if you use IDE you must be point-clicking around menus is often repeated. I guess … know your tool of choice inside-out is what’s more important.

troupo 2y ago

> It's one command that implements And you know this command how? You discovered it how? > That's my entire point! I learned the majority of Emacs and Vim commands well back in the mid-90s. Indeed. And now you complain about friction in IDEs because you refuse to learn IDEs to the same extent. > My point was about little frictions all adding up. Yes, yes they do. And I find there are significantly more frictions in Emacs and Vim than in a modern IDE. The only reason you don't see them is that you've already learned Emacs/Vim > It just takes much less memory to remember 4 verbs and maybe 6 nouns in Vim to perform navigation, than learning 4x6=24 shortcuts Wat. I don't even know what these random numbers mean, and where you got them from. And how we went from functionality and capabilities to navigation. > I'm just explaining why needing to remember fewer things Thing is, you don't remember "fewer things" with Emacs/Vim. You end up remembering about the same, or greater number of things on top of significantly worse functionality. Like you pretend that remembering dozens of various commands to type into `M-x` is somehow easier, and requires less memory than remembering the common shortcuts for common actions and falling back to Cmd+P(VS Code)/Cmd+Shift+A(Intelli J) to look up actions you rarely use.

lelanthran 2y ago
Why the antagonism? Programmable editors don't work for you, fine. Why make personal attacks on me, like this: > you pretend that I'm not pretending anything. > Thing is, you don't remember "fewer things" with Emacs/Vim. You end up remembering about the same, or greater number of things Not true. Like I said, I use an IDE daily, and there's much more to remember to get the same functionality that I get out of (for example) Vim. It's easier for me to remember (for example) 10 nouns that can be combined with 10 verbs than to memorise 100 shortcuts. You may find it easier to memorise 100 shortcuts rather than 10 verbs and 10 nouns, but I am certainly not pretending when I tell you that I find it easier to remember 20 things rather than 100 things.
- troupo 2y ago
  > It's easier for me to remember (for example) 10 nouns that can be combined with 10 verbs than to memorise 100 shortcuts. 1. There are no nouns or verbs in Vim. There's a haphazardly built combination of letters that are laboriously explained as some grand design. 2. You keep coming up with random numbers that make no sense and pretend (yes, pretend) that they are somehow true and relevant I didn't memorise 100 shortcuts. The only reason you struggle to get the same functionality out of an IDE is that you don't want to invest as much time and energy into learning it as you did with emacs/vim. There's nothing inherently easier about memorising `M-x sql-connect` or 20 random letters in Vim than learning basic functionality and shortcuts of an IDE.
  - lelanthran 2y ago
    > 1. There are no nouns or verbs in Vim. Yes, there is. Since your entire argument is predicated on a false premise, maybe you should stop digging at this point?
  - vldx 2y ago
    I agree. Honestly, I’m proficient with vim/emacs, but I’ve been using JetBrains for ~13 years and don’t want to sound boastful, but I’m pretty sure I’ll run circles around non-trivial amount of vim users in terms of productivity/efficiency/raw text editing. The amount of time I’ve put in customizing my workflow is stupid. The false dichotomy that if you use IDE you must be point-clicking around menus is often repeated. I guess … know your tool of choice inside-out is what’s more important.