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I'm more upset at NASA than Boeing over this for downplaying this issue for months while doing very serious things in the background like hot fire testing. Not

I'm more upset at NASA than Boeing over this for downplaying this issue for months while doing very serious things in the background like hot fire testing. Not transparent at all. You can easily see how public perception thought everything was fine all through July here: https://manifold.markets/Shihan/will-spacex-dragon-rescue-boeing-st https://manifold.markets/Shihan/will-spacex-dragon-rescue-bo... I'd love an investigation to see if the public perception matched NASA's perception. I would be money that it doesn't which means NASA has been hiding the truth from the public. How can anyone trust what NASA says after this?

ggm 2y ago
Is "hiding the truth" only a view if the truth is worse than the public think or could you imagine arguing that NASA "hid the truth" that its safer than the public thinks? Objectively I suspect the only hidden truths here are perceptions/knowlege that its worse than people think. Hiding you think its better is .. unlikely. Personally I don't ascribe a moral hazard dimension here. Probably, the NASA officials who had the power to state things, were not the ones conducting testing and their PR people were put on hold. I think its a malice/incompetence thing (Hanlon's razor)
TMWNN 2y ago
> I'm more upset at NASA than Boeing over this for downplaying this issue for months while doing very serious things in the background like hot fire testing. Not transparent at all. As late as July 28, NASA flight director Ed Van Cise explicitly denied that the Starliner crew was stuck or stranded <https://x.com/Carbon_Flight/status/1817754775196201035 https://x.com/Carbon_Flight/status/1817754775196201035>. Even if one quibbles about whether "stranded" applies in this situation (I believe that it does <https://np.reddit.com/r/space/comments/1ekicol/not_stranded_in_space_how_nasa_lost_control_of/lgm9fcb/?context=3 https://np.reddit.com/r/space/comments/1ekicol/not_stranded_...>), "stuck" definitely does.
burnished 2y ago
This reads as histrionics. You want an investigation into whether the general public felt the same panic people on the project do? No thanks, I'm alright with letting them get on with it and getting the full picture later.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  An investigation into whether NASA's public messaging jived with their internal communications seems like it could be a good idea, since we know previous disasters were in part caused by NASA feeling external pressure to perform even while their engineers were freaking out internally.
  - Yeul 2y ago
    NASA is funded with public money they should feel pressure to perform.
    - dotnet00 2y ago
      Feeling pressure to perform to the extent of tryimg to cover up or ignore serious safety issues raised by engineers is how you get people dying live on TV. That is obviously a lot worse than a delay as far as the opinion of the public goes.
    - GenerWork 2y ago
      It's sad that you're being downvoted. They absolutely should feel pressure to perform as a taxpayer funded entity.
      - dotnet00 2y ago
        They're being downvoted because they're intentionally misreading what "pressured to perform" means in this context. Both space shuttle disasters occurred because NASA was under pressure to 'perform' in the sense that they were under pressure to increase launch rate and cut costs to the extent that safety concerns were overlooked. Potentially serious issues were overlooked in favor of just flying. Similarly, the concern here is that NASA management felt pressured to allow Boeing to put the lives of crew at risk despite serious safety concerns from engineers. While they would've lucked out in this case since they got to the ISS and have alternate ways to come back, if that turned out to be the case, it'd raise serious additional concerns for NASA's management of other Boeing programs (see: SLS and Orion). As a taxpayer funded entity, NASA should feel pressured to perform in that they should feel pressured to progress their mission as efficiently as possible. This means taking the time to properly weigh safety risks, as a crew vehicle exploding due to known problems is a waste of taxpayer funds.
Sakos 2y ago
I don't understand. What would be the difference if they didn't downplay this? There'd be a massive shitstorm distracting resources at NASA and Boeing from doing their jobs and we wouldn't be any better off. How is that better for anybody? Why is handling the issue quietly worse? Let the engineers do their fucking jobs. > I'm more upset at NASA than Boeing More upset than the company that couldn't build a functioning, reliable rocket? Get a grip, dude.
- Mountain_Skies 2y ago
  >What would be the difference if they didn't downplay this? More confidence in NASA's future statements they make to the public.
  - Sakos 2y ago
    And confidence would solve the Starliner problem? Oh come on. NASA can't tell the truth because, you know, just look at the state of social media and the news today. I wouldn't want to tell anybody on HN the truth, much less your average CNN or Fox reader/viewer. You want them to tell the truth? Stop going on idiotic witch hunts first. The NTSB doesn't comment on ongoing investigations either. That's a good thing. Complete transparency only makes sense once everything has been resolved and investigated. Otherwise you have idiots on the internet chasing the flimsiest of threads and making a big stink about insignificant details.

ggm 2y ago

Is "hiding the truth" only a view if the truth is worse than the public think or could you imagine arguing that NASA "hid the truth" that its safer than the public thinks? Objectively I suspect the only hidden truths here are perceptions/knowlege that its worse than people think. Hiding you think its better is .. unlikely. Personally I don't ascribe a moral hazard dimension here. Probably, the NASA officials who had the power to state things, were not the ones conducting testing and their PR people were put on hold. I think its a malice/incompetence thing (Hanlon's razor)

TMWNN 2y ago

> I'm more upset at NASA than Boeing over this for downplaying this issue for months while doing very serious things in the background like hot fire testing. Not transparent at all. As late as July 28, NASA flight director Ed Van Cise explicitly denied that the Starliner crew was stuck or stranded <https://x.com/Carbon_Flight/status/1817754775196201035 https://x.com/Carbon_Flight/status/1817754775196201035>. Even if one quibbles about whether "stranded" applies in this situation (I believe that it does <https://np.reddit.com/r/space/comments/1ekicol/not_stranded_in_space_how_nasa_lost_control_of/lgm9fcb/?context=3 https://np.reddit.com/r/space/comments/1ekicol/not_stranded_...>), "stuck" definitely does.

burnished 2y ago

This reads as histrionics. You want an investigation into whether the general public felt the same panic people on the project do? No thanks, I'm alright with letting them get on with it and getting the full picture later.

lupusreal 2y ago
An investigation into whether NASA's public messaging jived with their internal communications seems like it could be a good idea, since we know previous disasters were in part caused by NASA feeling external pressure to perform even while their engineers were freaking out internally.
- Yeul 2y ago
  NASA is funded with public money they should feel pressure to perform.
  - dotnet00 2y ago
    Feeling pressure to perform to the extent of tryimg to cover up or ignore serious safety issues raised by engineers is how you get people dying live on TV. That is obviously a lot worse than a delay as far as the opinion of the public goes.
  - GenerWork 2y ago
    It's sad that you're being downvoted. They absolutely should feel pressure to perform as a taxpayer funded entity.
    - dotnet00 2y ago
      They're being downvoted because they're intentionally misreading what "pressured to perform" means in this context. Both space shuttle disasters occurred because NASA was under pressure to 'perform' in the sense that they were under pressure to increase launch rate and cut costs to the extent that safety concerns were overlooked. Potentially serious issues were overlooked in favor of just flying. Similarly, the concern here is that NASA management felt pressured to allow Boeing to put the lives of crew at risk despite serious safety concerns from engineers. While they would've lucked out in this case since they got to the ISS and have alternate ways to come back, if that turned out to be the case, it'd raise serious additional concerns for NASA's management of other Boeing programs (see: SLS and Orion). As a taxpayer funded entity, NASA should feel pressured to perform in that they should feel pressured to progress their mission as efficiently as possible. This means taking the time to properly weigh safety risks, as a crew vehicle exploding due to known problems is a waste of taxpayer funds.

Sakos 2y ago

I don't understand. What would be the difference if they didn't downplay this? There'd be a massive shitstorm distracting resources at NASA and Boeing from doing their jobs and we wouldn't be any better off. How is that better for anybody? Why is handling the issue quietly worse? Let the engineers do their fucking jobs. > I'm more upset at NASA than Boeing More upset than the company that couldn't build a functioning, reliable rocket? Get a grip, dude.

Mountain_Skies 2y ago
>What would be the difference if they didn't downplay this? More confidence in NASA's future statements they make to the public.
- Sakos 2y ago
  And confidence would solve the Starliner problem? Oh come on. NASA can't tell the truth because, you know, just look at the state of social media and the news today. I wouldn't want to tell anybody on HN the truth, much less your average CNN or Fox reader/viewer. You want them to tell the truth? Stop going on idiotic witch hunts first. The NTSB doesn't comment on ongoing investigations either. That's a good thing. Complete transparency only makes sense once everything has been resolved and investigated. Otherwise you have idiots on the internet chasing the flimsiest of threads and making a big stink about insignificant details.