7 ms·

I finished it, and wondered why she consented to such treatment over and over, reinforcing the stereotype instead of objecting and demonstrating competence and

I finished it, and wondered why she consented to such treatment over and over, reinforcing the stereotype instead of objecting and demonstrating competence and tearing down the misconception.

Mz 14y ago
In fairness to her, women tend to be socialized to do stupid stuff like that. Given a lifetime of such socialization, it can be very hard to come up with a better response on short notice. I make remarks like the one above in part to help other women realize they do have other options. My experience has been that providing an example of more effective behavior tends to go a very long way towards empowering other people.
- jdbernard 14y ago
  Sure, but why is it stupid to value acceptance over assertiveness? > I make remarks like the one above in part to help other women realize they do have other options. So, the "correct" option for a woman facing discrimination is to grow some balls, man up, and be assertive? Hmm. Still does not seem very fair to her.
  - Mz 14y ago
    Many years ago, probably in my teens, I read a wonderful anecdotal story that I have retold many times on the internet: In the eighties, a young woman was taking assertiveness training. The instructor was some Nazi-like drill seargent type of a woman. The course was teaching these women to yell at people and be extremely aggressive and pushy. At some point, it was the author's turn to yell and practice asserting herself. She told the instructor she didn't want to do that, she liked being nice to people. She was berated about how it is a tough world and she needed to learn to stand up for herself or people were going to walk all over her. She politely declined. Eventually the instructor moved on. She decided to quietly gather her things and leave. She didn't want to do this anymore. As she left, she overheard someone in the back row say to someone else "God, what a bitch." So, yes, she should woman up, grow some bigger tits if necessary and wear her brass bustier to mixed gender events if that is what it takes.
liedra 14y ago
It can be really hard in a situation like that to stand up for yourself, especially if you don't want to cause a public fuss. I'm female, and at PAX East I was approached a couple of times (at social events, by attendees) and rather inappropriate things were said to me; it's hard to do anything other than just want to get out of that sort of a situation. Something inside you says "I can't believe he really means this", or "Did he really just say what I think he said?" - it is very much l'esprit d'escalier when it comes to standing up for yourself.
- roguecoder 14y ago
  I always find it easier to speak up for other people than myself. One of the tricks I use when negotiating is to imagine I'm negotiating a salary for someone else so it stops being about me.
  - liedra 14y ago
    I'm also terrible at doing this, too. I think you're right though - it is easier to do it for someone else! But when you're in a confrontational situation that you haven't sought (unlike a salary negotiation, which you have probably sought), it's more about the "seat of your pants" type stuff, in which I tend to try to avoid escalation and/or the confrontation itself. Of course it's always easy to come up with "well I should have said x" or "I should have kicked him in the y" after it's over.
    - Mz 14y ago
      Seat of your pants type stuff is hard. It can help to go over all the "shoulda saids" afterwards so that you are a little quicker on the draw the next time. It also helps me personally to remember that just as I was socialized to behave a certain way, so were men. Many of them are happy to be given a different option for how to interact with women, assuming I give them the benefit of the doubt, treat it like a bad habit rather than a personal sin, and give them some option better than letting me abuse them instead of letting them abuse me. Intended to be helpful, not critical. Have a great day and thank you for participating.
ceol 14y ago
Most people put in those situations would freeze up exactly like she did. I'm surprised you would think a game journalist who had no prior expectation of this happening would, when confronted with such a situation, automatically think to "demonstrate confidence and tear down the misconception." The 20/20 hindsight in this thread is ridiculous.
- chives 14y ago
  Most people? Who are you referring? Any professional in her situation, male or female, would have spoken up if they had a problem. Period. Those people may well have stereotyped her, but when she fails to speak up about it and sits there silently giving no indication that something is wrong, what would you expect. This isn't kindergarten. These people don't get paid to read minds. What it sounds like, is at least part of the time these people genuinely thought they were helping her, and she gave no indication yo the contrary. She is not a professional, pure and simple. If you aren't a professional, then what are you doing at E3? What are you doing in any situation where assertiveness is expected in order to get your job done?
  - liedra 14y ago
    Are you serious? There are many reasons why one mightn't speak out at the time. I'm going to jump to the major conclusion that you're male and have never encountered a situation like this before. If you were female, with all the different social expectations that have been embedded in you since childhood, you might have a different perspective.
    - shiven 14y ago
      Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours.
      - jdbernard 14y ago
        I do not think she is arguing in favor of her "limitations". You are completely missing her perspective. The way you seem to value assertiveness is a typically male perspective. The female perspective often devalues assertiveness and instead values community and acceptance. Why should she have to assert herself? Maybe the burden should be on the other party to create an accepting environment.

I finished it, and wondered why she consented to such treatment over and over, reinforcing the stereotype instead of objecting and demonstrating competence and tearing down the misconception.

Mz 14y ago

In fairness to her, women tend to be socialized to do stupid stuff like that. Given a lifetime of such socialization, it can be very hard to come up with a better response on short notice. I make remarks like the one above in part to help other women realize they do have other options. My experience has been that providing an example of more effective behavior tends to go a very long way towards empowering other people.

jdbernard 14y ago
Sure, but why is it stupid to value acceptance over assertiveness? > I make remarks like the one above in part to help other women realize they do have other options. So, the "correct" option for a woman facing discrimination is to grow some balls, man up, and be assertive? Hmm. Still does not seem very fair to her.
- Mz 14y ago
  Many years ago, probably in my teens, I read a wonderful anecdotal story that I have retold many times on the internet: In the eighties, a young woman was taking assertiveness training. The instructor was some Nazi-like drill seargent type of a woman. The course was teaching these women to yell at people and be extremely aggressive and pushy. At some point, it was the author's turn to yell and practice asserting herself. She told the instructor she didn't want to do that, she liked being nice to people. She was berated about how it is a tough world and she needed to learn to stand up for herself or people were going to walk all over her. She politely declined. Eventually the instructor moved on. She decided to quietly gather her things and leave. She didn't want to do this anymore. As she left, she overheard someone in the back row say to someone else "God, what a bitch." So, yes, she should woman up, grow some bigger tits if necessary and wear her brass bustier to mixed gender events if that is what it takes.

liedra 14y ago

It can be really hard in a situation like that to stand up for yourself, especially if you don't want to cause a public fuss. I'm female, and at PAX East I was approached a couple of times (at social events, by attendees) and rather inappropriate things were said to me; it's hard to do anything other than just want to get out of that sort of a situation. Something inside you says "I can't believe he really means this", or "Did he really just say what I think he said?" - it is very much l'esprit d'escalier when it comes to standing up for yourself.

roguecoder 14y ago
I always find it easier to speak up for other people than myself. One of the tricks I use when negotiating is to imagine I'm negotiating a salary for someone else so it stops being about me.
- liedra 14y ago
  I'm also terrible at doing this, too. I think you're right though - it is easier to do it for someone else! But when you're in a confrontational situation that you haven't sought (unlike a salary negotiation, which you have probably sought), it's more about the "seat of your pants" type stuff, in which I tend to try to avoid escalation and/or the confrontation itself. Of course it's always easy to come up with "well I should have said x" or "I should have kicked him in the y" after it's over.
  - Mz 14y ago
    Seat of your pants type stuff is hard. It can help to go over all the "shoulda saids" afterwards so that you are a little quicker on the draw the next time. It also helps me personally to remember that just as I was socialized to behave a certain way, so were men. Many of them are happy to be given a different option for how to interact with women, assuming I give them the benefit of the doubt, treat it like a bad habit rather than a personal sin, and give them some option better than letting me abuse them instead of letting them abuse me. Intended to be helpful, not critical. Have a great day and thank you for participating.

ceol 14y ago

Most people put in those situations would freeze up exactly like she did. I'm surprised you would think a game journalist who had no prior expectation of this happening would, when confronted with such a situation, automatically think to "demonstrate confidence and tear down the misconception." The 20/20 hindsight in this thread is ridiculous.

chives 14y ago
Most people? Who are you referring? Any professional in her situation, male or female, would have spoken up if they had a problem. Period. Those people may well have stereotyped her, but when she fails to speak up about it and sits there silently giving no indication that something is wrong, what would you expect. This isn't kindergarten. These people don't get paid to read minds. What it sounds like, is at least part of the time these people genuinely thought they were helping her, and she gave no indication yo the contrary. She is not a professional, pure and simple. If you aren't a professional, then what are you doing at E3? What are you doing in any situation where assertiveness is expected in order to get your job done?
- liedra 14y ago
  Are you serious? There are many reasons why one mightn't speak out at the time. I'm going to jump to the major conclusion that you're male and have never encountered a situation like this before. If you were female, with all the different social expectations that have been embedded in you since childhood, you might have a different perspective.
  - shiven 14y ago
    Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours.
    - jdbernard 14y ago
      I do not think she is arguing in favor of her "limitations". You are completely missing her perspective. The way you seem to value assertiveness is a typically male perspective. The female perspective often devalues assertiveness and instead values community and acceptance. Why should she have to assert herself? Maybe the burden should be on the other party to create an accepting environment.