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This is Apple blocking (some?) VPN apps from the App Store because [edit: probably] they're required to do so, something they've been doing for a while in some

This is Apple blocking (some?) VPN apps from the App Store because [edit: probably] they're required to do so, something they've been doing for a while in some countries (eg: China, Russia). And this is why I want to have the option to install whatever I want on my devices without needing to use the app store everyone uses. Not a very popular position among Apple users because everything must come only from the App Store for some reason, but when something like this happens, you have no alternatives.

BiteCode_dev 2y ago
Everybody wants a benevolent dictator to take care of things for them until they are victims of power abuse for an edge case they didn't predict yet was inevitable.
- pessimizer 2y ago
  It doesn't even have to be an edge case. Many people support horrible things seemingly under the assumption that the government that changes control every 4-12 years will never change again. Maybe it's rational on some level; if you manage to give the people you prefer limitless power while they rule, maybe they'll become powerful enough to end elections. edit: of course Moraes did the same for Bolsonaro as for Lula. Some people's ideologies rest mainly on their hatred of the general population, not a preference for the rule of any particular party.
  - brigadier132 2y ago
    It's not rational, most people are not rational.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  Exactly. I am seeing a trend of people shriek about censorship free social media or censorship free LLMs or whatever else. Initially it made me think they are just so conditioned to be controlled and ‘guided’ by an authoritarian power that they can’t help but call for reduced individual freedoms. But actually I think it is simply that they are personally aligned with the current ‘benevolent dictatorships’ because they see it as giving their tribe power. But if they were victims of the abuse - meaning the people they seek to control/censor/suppress - they would absolutely not hold this view.
userbinator 2y ago
Not a very popular position among Apple users because everything must come only from the App Store for some reason Because "security" is a great marketing point and they've bought into that completely, thinking that trusting Apple and having it control your life is a good thing.
- t0md4n 2y ago
  I would argue that that’s better than having multiple devices from multiple manufactures and multiple software applications from multiple companies.
  - rodgerd 2y ago
    You can buy open hardware running Linux today. Why don't you? Oh right, the mobile Linux experience is so bad only the most devoted will subject themselves to it.
  - luuurker 2y ago
    The option to buy devices from different brands is there, but you don't have to. Samsung or Google is happy to sell you a phone, a watch, earphones, and maybe some speakers for your home. Heck, Samsung will even sell you a TV, washing machine, and a fridge if you want. In any case, what I struggle to understand is the position some have when it comes to install apps on iOS. I understand the security angle, but you can do it right (with Apple always in control of the OS and the permissions apps get), still be in the Apple ecosystem, and having the option to install a VPN app after Apple receives a court order to block said app.
- qeternity 2y ago
  Why do people do this? Name a device with comparable mass market success that is remotely close to being as secure as the iPhone.
  - userbinator 2y ago
    A lot of people are starting to realise that "secure" means "secure AGAINST the user".
jajko 2y ago
Having less choice was touted as good (TM). In that vein having no choice must be the ultimate greatness. I just don't get it. Why the heck do IT folks who know this crap from left and right keep blindly celebrating whatever that company comes up with. Just because they have huge market cap, is money really your primary judge of whats good and moral and worthy of your resources? Phones went from useful portable call/sms device into by far the most important electronic device in our lives and there is no way back. More than any shininess and massive PR I care about options it gives me. Options means freedom, coupled of course with responsibility. I, nor absolutely nobody I know of in IT, is installing random unknown apps just for the heck of it. But when I need to and I know what I am doing, I can do it without breaking a sweat since its my and only my darn device and its basic purpose is installing & running apps. That's just basic freedom, and darn important one. I've heard all the arguments for apple, here and elsewhere. Nothing, even combined together, trumps freedom of choice and thats directly against the core of their company policy. Time for some EU decisions I'd say to get superior product than elsewhere (although they will try to cripple it hard, very hard as we've seen in few childish steps recently).
- lupusreal 2y ago
  Freedom implies personal responsibility, and that scares the shit out of many people.
nottorp 2y ago
Don't worry, now they'll say this is in a 3rd world country and it can't happen where they live. Think of the children! On the other hand, it may be just incompetence somewhere, as another thread here says.
f6v 2y ago
Wouldn’t the OS vendor just block the installation of certain apps? Say, UK says that Samsung and Apple should block certain encrypted messaging apps. Regardless if it’s from App Store or not.
- londons_explore 2y ago
  Or the silicon chips inside could just turn off whenever they see the word 'telegram' anywhere in memory...
- luuurker 2y ago
  I don't know about Apple, but I don't think Samsung has something in place to just ban certain "package names" from being installed. So far what countries have been doing is 1) ban the app store from distributing the apps and, sometimes, 2) try to block it at a network level. What you're suggesting would be a escalation and we should worry about that when it happens. Package names (the real name of an app on Android) can be randomised, for example. The problem right now is that if you own an Apple device in Brazil, you can't install the app of this VPN provider. That doesn't sit right with me. Android has its issues, but if I can find the apk, then I can install it. What can you do with an iPhone? Perhaps use a 3rd party Wireguard or OpenVPN client that hasn't been blocked yet and download a profile from Proton's website? What happens when that client is blocked too?
  - noodlesUK 2y ago
    I wouldn't be at all surprised if the implementation of 3rd party app stores in iOS resulted in something like XProtect (macOS's built in antimalware) coming to iOS. It would then be possible to compel Apple to add the signature of an offending app to the malware database.
- bastawhiz 2y ago
  How exactly would Samsung reach into your phone and prevent you from installing an APK?
  - 2y ago
HumblyTossed 2y ago
And this is why I always have an Android phone as well as an iPhone. Android makes side loading possible and thus F-Droid possible. Apple users can argue all they want about not wanting side loading, but one day that will come back and bite them.
CodeWriter23 2y ago
They’re not “required” to block VPN apps. They are choosing to comply with the regime’s threats, so they can maintain their business. They could, like X has done in Venezuela, choose not to vend their products in that country.
raxxorraxor 2y ago
You hear the argument a lot. It is basically giving over guardianship of yourself to Apple. It often does feel you are arguing with children about that point though. To be fair, Apple doesn't have much choice since government does have a legal handle against their commercial activities at least. This would not be the case if it was the choice of users. This situation was entirely predictable and I believe it is a case where some people just make stupid choices (not if you buy Apple, but if you argue that everything has to be locked down without the option to opt-out for that matter).

BiteCode_dev 2y ago

Everybody wants a benevolent dictator to take care of things for them until they are victims of power abuse for an edge case they didn't predict yet was inevitable.

pessimizer 2y ago
It doesn't even have to be an edge case. Many people support horrible things seemingly under the assumption that the government that changes control every 4-12 years will never change again. Maybe it's rational on some level; if you manage to give the people you prefer limitless power while they rule, maybe they'll become powerful enough to end elections. edit: of course Moraes did the same for Bolsonaro as for Lula. Some people's ideologies rest mainly on their hatred of the general population, not a preference for the rule of any particular party.
- brigadier132 2y ago
  It's not rational, most people are not rational.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
Exactly. I am seeing a trend of people shriek about censorship free social media or censorship free LLMs or whatever else. Initially it made me think they are just so conditioned to be controlled and ‘guided’ by an authoritarian power that they can’t help but call for reduced individual freedoms. But actually I think it is simply that they are personally aligned with the current ‘benevolent dictatorships’ because they see it as giving their tribe power. But if they were victims of the abuse - meaning the people they seek to control/censor/suppress - they would absolutely not hold this view.

userbinator 2y ago

Not a very popular position among Apple users because everything must come only from the App Store for some reason Because "security" is a great marketing point and they've bought into that completely, thinking that trusting Apple and having it control your life is a good thing.

t0md4n 2y ago
I would argue that that’s better than having multiple devices from multiple manufactures and multiple software applications from multiple companies.
- rodgerd 2y ago
  You can buy open hardware running Linux today. Why don't you? Oh right, the mobile Linux experience is so bad only the most devoted will subject themselves to it.
- luuurker 2y ago
  The option to buy devices from different brands is there, but you don't have to. Samsung or Google is happy to sell you a phone, a watch, earphones, and maybe some speakers for your home. Heck, Samsung will even sell you a TV, washing machine, and a fridge if you want. In any case, what I struggle to understand is the position some have when it comes to install apps on iOS. I understand the security angle, but you can do it right (with Apple always in control of the OS and the permissions apps get), still be in the Apple ecosystem, and having the option to install a VPN app after Apple receives a court order to block said app.
qeternity 2y ago
Why do people do this? Name a device with comparable mass market success that is remotely close to being as secure as the iPhone.
- userbinator 2y ago
  A lot of people are starting to realise that "secure" means "secure AGAINST the user".

jajko 2y ago

Having less choice was touted as good (TM). In that vein having no choice must be the ultimate greatness. I just don't get it. Why the heck do IT folks who know this crap from left and right keep blindly celebrating whatever that company comes up with. Just because they have huge market cap, is money really your primary judge of whats good and moral and worthy of your resources? Phones went from useful portable call/sms device into by far the most important electronic device in our lives and there is no way back. More than any shininess and massive PR I care about options it gives me. Options means freedom, coupled of course with responsibility. I, nor absolutely nobody I know of in IT, is installing random unknown apps just for the heck of it. But when I need to and I know what I am doing, I can do it without breaking a sweat since its my and only my darn device and its basic purpose is installing & running apps. That's just basic freedom, and darn important one. I've heard all the arguments for apple, here and elsewhere. Nothing, even combined together, trumps freedom of choice and thats directly against the core of their company policy. Time for some EU decisions I'd say to get superior product than elsewhere (although they will try to cripple it hard, very hard as we've seen in few childish steps recently).

lupusreal 2y ago
Freedom implies personal responsibility, and that scares the shit out of many people.

nottorp 2y ago

Don't worry, now they'll say this is in a 3rd world country and it can't happen where they live. Think of the children! On the other hand, it may be just incompetence somewhere, as another thread here says.

f6v 2y ago

Wouldn’t the OS vendor just block the installation of certain apps? Say, UK says that Samsung and Apple should block certain encrypted messaging apps. Regardless if it’s from App Store or not.

londons_explore 2y ago
Or the silicon chips inside could just turn off whenever they see the word 'telegram' anywhere in memory...
luuurker 2y ago
I don't know about Apple, but I don't think Samsung has something in place to just ban certain "package names" from being installed. So far what countries have been doing is 1) ban the app store from distributing the apps and, sometimes, 2) try to block it at a network level. What you're suggesting would be a escalation and we should worry about that when it happens. Package names (the real name of an app on Android) can be randomised, for example. The problem right now is that if you own an Apple device in Brazil, you can't install the app of this VPN provider. That doesn't sit right with me. Android has its issues, but if I can find the apk, then I can install it. What can you do with an iPhone? Perhaps use a 3rd party Wireguard or OpenVPN client that hasn't been blocked yet and download a profile from Proton's website? What happens when that client is blocked too?
- noodlesUK 2y ago
  I wouldn't be at all surprised if the implementation of 3rd party app stores in iOS resulted in something like XProtect (macOS's built in antimalware) coming to iOS. It would then be possible to compel Apple to add the signature of an offending app to the malware database.
bastawhiz 2y ago
How exactly would Samsung reach into your phone and prevent you from installing an APK?
- 2y ago

HumblyTossed 2y ago

And this is why I always have an Android phone as well as an iPhone. Android makes side loading possible and thus F-Droid possible. Apple users can argue all they want about not wanting side loading, but one day that will come back and bite them.

CodeWriter23 2y ago

They’re not “required” to block VPN apps. They are choosing to comply with the regime’s threats, so they can maintain their business. They could, like X has done in Venezuela, choose not to vend their products in that country.

raxxorraxor 2y ago

You hear the argument a lot. It is basically giving over guardianship of yourself to Apple. It often does feel you are arguing with children about that point though. To be fair, Apple doesn't have much choice since government does have a legal handle against their commercial activities at least. This would not be the case if it was the choice of users. This situation was entirely predictable and I believe it is a case where some people just make stupid choices (not if you buy Apple, but if you argue that everything has to be locked down without the option to opt-out for that matter).