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Apple might be implementing a VPN censorship order in Brazil
- kmeisthax 2y agoTwitter also pulled out of Brazil. While I presume Musk is at least partially playing this up, they apparently got some kind of secret court order. Anyone has any idea what's going on down there?
- ryandrake 2y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41275600 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41275600
- zo1 2y agoThe link details posted to you by the other commenter might be one part of why Twitter left Brazil. But there could be "more devious" stuff happening behind the scenes. If that's the case, and with Twitter being a tad too twitchy or zealous (for whatever reason), they may end up being a really good "canary in the coalmine" for weird and shadowy government orders/letters.
- KerrAvon 2y agoTwitter is bleeding money. Seems likely Musk will use any excuse to shut down ongoing expenses he doesn't think he needs anymore.
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- trompetenaccoun 2y agoThey threatened to arrest Brazilian Twitter employees because the company refused to hand over user private info (IPs). Apparently some of the users on the demand list aren't even based in Brazil. Things don't seem to be going well down there.
- matheusmoreira 2y agoThings aren't going well at all. Relevant news: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-08-14/leaked-messages-ignite-firestorm-around-crusading-brazil-judge https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-08-14/leaked-me... https://web.archive.org/web/20240818034709/https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-08-14/leaked-messages-ignite-firestorm-around-crusading-brazil-judge https://web.archive.org/web/20240818034709/https://www.bloom...
- thiagoharry 2y agoNothing exactly new. Brazilian laws allow court orders that remove online content in case of hate speech, defamation, threatenings or for the benefit of some ongoing investigation. The only new thing is that in recent years, several far right activists were targeted by investigation, related with a botched coup attempt which was equivalent to the capitolio invasion in the USA. Then, several of them are denouncing this as "censorship", even if in the past the same laws were used by Bolsonaro and far right activists to remove content in the Internet, as when someone threatened the ex-president online. Musk joined them, and begun ignoring court orders, despite complying with equivalent court orders from other countries. After ignoring several court orders, Twitter had to withdraw from the country to do not face legal consequences. About VPN: As far as I know, there is no previous case in Brazil where VPN services were targeted. Apple do not have a huge market share in Brazil (just 16.54% for iOS), so it would be very strange trying to block something there. I do not think that blocking VPN makes any sense and I would wait for Apple pronouncement before suggesting "censorship" or something like this.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoThe media is not exploring this conflict between Twitter/X and Brazil correctly. What’s happening is that one justice on their Supreme Court equivalent, Alexander de Moraes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandre_de_Moraes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandre_de_Moraes), has been abusing his position to illegally suppress political opposition. You can read about it in this thread: https://x.com/shellenberger/status/1775516415023251835 https://x.com/shellenberger/status/1775516415023251835 Note that Twitter is not refusing to comply with local laws. They’re saying that the orders from Moraes are not legal under Brazilian law, and therefore they are refusing to comply. Moraes is one justice. There is a due process there. You can’t just arbitrarily order bans on social media accounts or call for people of the opposing political camp to be arrested for illegal speech, even in Brazil. Moraes, for his part, claims he was given the power to unilaterally censor speech and arrest violators by the Superior Electoral Court (a different court from the one he is a sitting justice on). Which makes no sense, since the courts cannot make up laws, since they are not the legislature. By the way Musk isn’t the only one criticized Moraes. Even the New York Times wrote an article that labeled him as a threat to Brazilian democracy, as have various press organizations: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/22/world/americas/brazil-alexandre-de-moraes.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/22/world/americas/brazil-ale... More disturbingly, their new leader Lula - who has a history of corruption and authoritarianism - has been calling for criminalizing lies, whatever that means: https://www.public.news/p/brazil-should-terrify-you https://www.public.news/p/brazil-should-terrify-you
- matheusmoreira 2y agoThe situation has been brewing for around half a decade now. Basically the supreme court gave itself limitless powers to investigate and judge "fake news". Their powers have only expanded since then. Before the elections they started engaging in blatantly unconstitutional behavior like political censorship. They don't seem to be slowing down. These are great comments from fellow brazilian HNers, I always point to them whenever context is needed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39966382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39966382 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36543423 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36543423 I also submitted this bit of news here on HN back in 2022: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/21/world/americas/brazil-online-content-misinformation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/21/world/americas/brazil-onl...
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- lordofgibbons 2y agoThis is terrible news, and I hope this opens up the eyes of people who don't see the dangers of user-hostile and locked down "walled gardens".
- BiteCode_dev 2y agoJust like the hundred of previous similar events, they will not.
- luuurker 2y agoThis is Apple blocking (some?) VPN apps from the App Store because [edit: probably] they're required to do so, something they've been doing for a while in some countries (eg: China, Russia). And this is why I want to have the option to install whatever I want on my devices without needing to use the app store everyone uses. Not a very popular position among Apple users because everything must come only from the App Store for some reason, but when something like this happens, you have no alternatives.
- BiteCode_dev 2y agoEverybody wants a benevolent dictator to take care of things for them until they are victims of power abuse for an edge case they didn't predict yet was inevitable.
- pessimizer 2y agoIt doesn't even have to be an edge case. Many people support horrible things seemingly under the assumption that the government that changes control every 4-12 years will never change again. Maybe it's rational on some level; if you manage to give the people you prefer limitless power while they rule, maybe they'll become powerful enough to end elections. edit: of course Moraes did the same for Bolsonaro as for Lula. Some people's ideologies rest mainly on their hatred of the general population, not a preference for the rule of any particular party.
- brigadier132 2y agoIt's not rational, most people are not rational.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoExactly. I am seeing a trend of people shriek about censorship free social media or censorship free LLMs or whatever else. Initially it made me think they are just so conditioned to be controlled and ‘guided’ by an authoritarian power that they can’t help but call for reduced individual freedoms. But actually I think it is simply that they are personally aligned with the current ‘benevolent dictatorships’ because they see it as giving their tribe power. But if they were victims of the abuse - meaning the people they seek to control/censor/suppress - they would absolutely not hold this view.
- mrtksn 2y agoAfter the news about VPN apps removed from the App Store in Russia, the writing was on the wall: The current tech companies have become an enforcement agency of the state they operate in. I'm pretty happy with Apple's walled garden but IMHO the risk is too high to run the society on infrastructure that can be used to fully control the communications and individual ability of people on press of a button. I fully expect the US to learn their lesson after the US elections this year, either pro-Trump or the anti-Trump folks will learn their lesson the hard way. Whenever there's the technical ability, someone will want to use it. That's also why all the governments want to listen to our conversations and access our data, they are also always well intentioned(in their mind the solution to stop the bad people is just a click away, how can you deny this?). The problem is of course, either someone will get corrupted and use this to do something horrible(tech designed to save the children will be used to target people) or people will disagree on what's what's the right thing to do and the tech will be used to destroy them(decisions on something will be met with protests and the tech will be used to silence/cancel/catch/demoralize/block communication etc). I'm afraid the world will go through a techno-fascism stage.
- userbinator 2y agoThe current tech companies have become an enforcement agency of the state they operate in. It's more like Big Tech has become its own unelected global government. They already go beyond local government orders and control what information much of the population receives. I'm afraid the world will go through a techno-fascism stage. Will? We are already living in it.
- smt88 2y ago> It's more like Big Tech has become its own unelected global government. They already go beyond local government orders and control what information much of the population receives. In many of these cases, such a China, Russia, and some Latin American countries, the local government is also not elected.
- trte9343r4 2y ago> on infrastructure that can be used to fully control the communications and individual ability of people on press of a button. > I fully expect the US to learn their lesson after the US elections > I'm afraid the world will go through a techno-fascism stage Do you remember last 4 years? All the censorship and election interference from big tech?
- mrinfinitiesx 2y ago'We no longer answer to your Brazillian dictatorship' -> Solved. Only if. This is why I love the power of F-Droid, Linux, and things like Apple not making browsers run its engine under the hood, forced 'App Stores' You never. Ever. Ever. Force a VPN censorship. Access to the internet is our last hope, as a house divided against itself, falls. To separate the people and control their communications, is an act of war. While this may sound extreme, imagine going to log on the internet and not being able to know whats going on, or contact any of your friends while being told bullshit on local TV channels and curfews being 1pm while not having money to buy groceries.
- throwaway87483 2y agoYeah, having lived through total internet shutdown during anti-government riots, Linux and F-Droid didn't help us much here. If the infrastructure is down, it doesn't matter what technology you're using to access it, and shutting it down at the first sign of trouble for the establishment is quickly becoming the norm in a lot of places. I have a feeling you (currently relatively free countries) will follow in a decade or two, like you have already done with some things. Our governments borrow the worst ideas from each other.
- mrinfinitiesx 2y agoWhat are the solutions then, out of general curiosity?
- thiagoharry 2y agoI am Brazilian and as far as I know, there is no previous case in Brazil where VPN services were removed from online stores or any other web page. Apple do not have a huge market share in Brazil (just 16.54% for iOS), so it would be very strange trying to block something there. I do not think that blocking VPN makes any sense and I would wait for Apple pronouncement before suggesting "censorship" or something like this.
- reddog 2y ago“Apple might be implementing…”. Could you get back with me when you actually know?
- whiterknight 2y agoWhy does HN and assume they can simply not follow the law in the country they do business? They should be mad at Brazil.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoThey are mad at Brazil but they also want these powerful American tech companies to take a stance for American values, to whatever extent they can. It’s not appropriate for Apple to support political oppression, just as it is not appropriate for Nike to use cotton supplied by enslaved Uyghur labor. Sure they are not solely responsible for those situations but they give it continued power and legitimacy through their willing compliance. As for Brazil - who do you get mad at? The people? Most of the people are just trying to survive day to day and aren’t involved in these power struggles. Everyone from independent journalists, to press organizations, to US House committees, to political opposition within Brazil have complained about the new hard push for authoritarian censorship by the sitting government under Lula. But who can create change? I think corporations have more power to influence than maybe all of these groups.
- throwaway87483 2y agoThey only care about their bottom line and are not doing anything the governments aren't doing. The US government, for example, is happy to trade and deal with our own despite the latter's horrific human rights record. Somehow that subject never comes up in their talks. They were happy to deal with the CCP for decades and that only started changing when it became clear that China is turning into a major global power that will not simply roll over and do what it's told. Basically every other country of any international prominence behaves in the same way, I'm not singling out the US.
- matheusmoreira 2y ago> As for Brazil - who do you get mad at? The brazilian supreme court.
- whiterknight 2y agoI don’t think everyone wants American values. I don’t think you can run a successful international organization without respecting the local law and customs.
- dkga 2y agoBrazilian here. To the best of my knowledge such orders are always publicised, if nothing else because they would be highly unlikely to apply to only one platform (ie, the courts or some regulatory agency would need to require Android and other phones to also disallow ProtonVPN or any other). So this seems like a tech glitch, could even be some block implemented for example at the Embratel backbone connecting Brazil to the rest of the world. Or, could indeed be the unlikely but possible cases of Apple just responding to a “secret” order or deciding out of its own volition to block them.
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- matheusmoreira 2y agoIt is very likely to be a censorship order. There's this supreme court judge who wants his personal enemies suppressed and he's gonna make it everybody's problem until he gets impeached. I've read documents where he calls technology like VPNs "subterfuge" and threatens totally arbitrary fines to anyone using such things and any such service making itself available to brazilians. Proton made its VPNs freely available in Venezuela after the fraudulent elections. They're probably aware of it. These people are all defenders of the venezuelan dictatorship after all.