5 ms·

Why toilet paper keeps getting smaller and smaller

48 points by Anon84 2y ago

vanous 2y ago
Next thing we will see is a roll of 1000 sheets... Just really tiny ones...
- upon_drumhead 2y ago
  just wait until they realize they can perforate down the middle and double the sheet count!
xnx 2y ago
$/pound would be a more sensible metric to price compare. Still gameable, but less so than rolls/sheets/double/mega/ply/etc.
tanseydavid 2y ago
Looks like a roll of cash register receipt paper these days.
antisthenes 2y ago
What about thickness? There's no a way a roll of toilet paper that's 3x as long would fit in a standard holder.
- xnyan 2y ago
  The thickness of TP is manipulated upwards by adding voids between the layers, this is marketed as "air pockets, air cushions, etc) but it's nothing more than a marketing trick to explain the cheapening of TP While it's true you don't want an very dense paper to maximize absorbency, the large voids in TP don't affect it's absorbency in a significant way because they are thin and weak and completely colapse when wet. Get rid of the gimmicky air pockets and you'd decrease the thickness by half at least. Edit: you can see this for yourself with a little experiment at home. Get yourself a air-puffed TP (Walmart's house brand is a particularly egregious example) and drizzle a little water on on it, you'll be able to see it's volume actually decreases as it's fluffy air pockets colapse when wet. Compare this to the behavior of a non-scam fluffy absorber like Sodium Polyacrylate (diapers) which will swell in size when wet.
xyst 2y ago
I switched to bidet at home anyways. Keep a pack of baby wipes in my bag for when I unfortunately need to use public (or private) restrooms stocked with the inferior toilet paper (all TP is useless in comparison to bidet or wet wipes). Single ply, double ply. No difference to me. I still feel dirty/unclean after wiping my ass with dry af TP that has a strong tendency to tear
- georgel 2y ago
  I would get one, but my apartment lease forbids them on "water damage" reasons. I've only seen a clause like this in my most recent lease.
  - xnyan 2y ago
    The reason for this is that bidets have had a massive upswing in popularity, and unfortunately many are poor quality and/or fit, installed incorrectly, or both. My family mostly works in the trades and I did as well in college, would not call myself a pro but I'm the friend you call when you have a plumbing problem and want an opinion before calling in a real plumber. The number of poorly fitting bidet attachment seats that have been badly installed I've seen is quite high. If I owned the bathroom and someone wanted to add a bidet, I too would have my concerns. A ban is crazy, but I think it's totally valid to at least have a plumber inspect and sign off on the work.
    - lancesells 2y ago
      Not sure what you mean by poorly fitting. I've only purchased one bidet attachment but i don't see how it could do any damage unless you don't turn the water off or empty the toilet tank on install. Are you saying the water line leaks on some bidets after install?
      - javagram 2y ago
        Not a plumber but I’ve installed a few bidets in my homes and it’s easy to see how the flexible supply line could leak if tightened too much or not enough. Toilet braided steel supply lines themselves are supposedly supposed to be replaced every 5-10 years to reduce the risk of bursting. I put water alarms connected to my security system behind each bidet equipped toilet.
PhasmaFelis 2y ago
> The note from P&G on my 1992 toilet paper said Charmin Ultra had shrunk “because it is so thick we couldn't put as many sheets on and keep the rolls the same size.” > Uh-huh. I mean...that makes plenty of sense. My parents love this ultra-thin single-ply crap that gets plenty of footage on the roll, but it doesn't really matter when you have to pull off six feet and fold it a dozen times to get a good wipe.
- al_borland 2y ago
  I buy Charmin Ultra Strong. The “Super Mega” rolls are absolutely massive. They for sure would not fit in a lot of standard holders. When I was buying a holder recently I was actually worried about what would fit in most standard designs and bought one that seemed to be the most forgiving. While I agree that the “Super Mega” and “6 rolls in 1” marketing is silly nonsense, the size of the rolls today are comically large. I actually think the Super Mega are too big. It’s 362 sheets of 2-ply, which is like 724 sheets of single-ply (and likely a thicker ply than decades old stuff). The benchmark from the article seemed to be 650 sheets of single-ply. Maybe the industry just needs a new metric. Measuring stuff based on some made up roll size isn’t helpful. We can all see how big the rolls are when we’re buying the stuff. Does anyone actually look at the sheet count?
pupppet 2y ago
Thank goodness for Costco, their rolls are huge. The abundance of paper dust that comes off their rolls however I can do without.
- jasomill 2y ago
  To align with numbers cited in the article: Kirkland Signature 30 pack[1]: 380 sheets/roll 4.5"×4" sheets $23.49 cost per pack $0.016/square foot Kirkland Signature Ultra Soft 36 pack[2]: 231 sheets/roll 4.5"×4" sheets $24.99/pack $0.024/square foot Charmin Ultra Soft 30 pack from Costco[3] 213 sheets/roll 4.5"×4.2" sheets $27.49/pack $0.033/square foot [1] https://www.costco.com/kirkland-signature-bath-tissue%2c-2-ply%2c-380-sheets%2c-30-rolls.product.100645583.html https://www.costco.com/kirkland-signature-bath-tissue%2c-2-p... [2] https://www.costco.com/kirkland-signature-ultra-soft-bath-tissue%2c-2-ply%2c-231-sheets%2c-36-rolls.product.4000206004.html https://www.costco.com/kirkland-signature-ultra-soft-bath-ti... [3] https://www.costco.com/charmin-ultra-soft-bath-tissue%2c-2-ply%2c-213-sheets%2c-30-rolls.product.4000221238.html https://www.costco.com/charmin-ultra-soft-bath-tissue%2c-2-p...
- al_borland 2y ago
  Most of my family swears by Costco TP, and I don’t understand it. I think it’s trash compared to Charmin Ultra Strong. I dread needing to use the toilet when visiting.
tedunangst 2y ago
How much money are people spending on toilet paper? Worrying about cost per wipe seems like one of the least economically productive things one can do.
- c22 2y ago
  We were starting to blow our household/toiletries budget every month so we found another brand we all agreed on that's a little lower quality but has more sheets per roll and we started landing in budget again. I didn't do any analysis beyond that.
  - elashri 2y ago
    I would suggest actually doing a small analysis on the idea of replacing that with a bidet. It will be surprising how it is more cost effective and comfortable option.
    - al_borland 2y ago
      I’ve been hearing people talk about the miracles of bidets online for years. I took a trip to Tokyo a few years back and thought I’d finally see what all the fuss was about. I have to say, I absolutely hated it. After the first week I gave up even trying to use it. The seat warmers were also pretty unpleasant, imo. There were some pretty cool automatic seat covers that I liked, but most of the other stuff I wasn’t a fan of.
      - 486sx33 2y ago
        Half of the awfulness is the surprise, the second half is getting the smallest possible delta between water and sphincter temperature. Lol ! I think bidets are kind of cool, but other than for your private ensuite they’re pretty impractical. Toto has the best temperature control systems though IMHO
  - stavros 2y ago
    I'll second the bidet. It's not only more economical, but so, so much cleaner.
DonHopkins 2y ago
Stinkflation.
shortsunblack 2y ago
Producers should be required to make disclosures in officially recognized boards/gazettes before substantially changing quality/composition/recipe/materials/function of any good. Make it 3 to 6 months. A consumer should not be screwed for buying an inferior product for the same price because a producer decided to reduce quality to increase margins. It's a form of information asymmetry that leads to inefficiency in markets. This works even more easily if the product already needs to be registered in some gov't registry. For example books and with the case of substituting good quality paper with worse quality paper (less gsm or such).
- euroderf 2y ago
  The all-purpose retort is "but that is proprietary information!"
SoftTalker 2y ago
I buy Scott toilet paper and AFAICT it's the same as it ever was. I like it because there is a lot of paper on a roll. Edit: Well I see that TFA reports that Scott tissue rolls have shrunk also. I never noticed. I was pretty sure they still say "1000 sheets per roll"
Joker_vD 2y ago
> On top of that, many companies, especially in China, play “the inventory game,” McClay adds. They buy huge quantities of pulp on spot when prices are low — sending the price upward — and avoid buying at the higher rates, sending the price back down. ...shouldn't that, on the contrary, stabilise the prices? You know, with the buffers now in place?
- Danieru 2y ago
  Indeed, why are th western companies not themselves stocking up in gluts? Always buying at spot prices is rather unsophisticated behavior. I'd expect a mega corp to operate a team of experts to identify opportunities. Why are they instead taking the market price and leaving no buffer?
SoftTalker 2y ago
Here is why they do it. This happens with almost all consumer products by the way: candy bars, breakfast cereal, you name it. They start out with a size and a price. At some point they start to decrease the size, but keep the price the same. They don't call your attention to this. Most people don't really notice. At some point they increase the size and the price, with splashy labeling and advertising "new larger size." You might notice the price increase, but you figure well you're getting more. Repeat.
- bradknowles 2y ago
  It’s called “shrinkflation”.
486sx33 2y ago
TP is certainly softer, more comfortable and has more plys than ever. A per sheet analysis of a roll likely isn’t the best comparison as there is absolutely an upper bound on the total roll size, especially in older homes with built into the wall ceramic toilet paper holders. Those suckers confirm to me that toilet paper rolls are larger than ever because lots of new toilet paper rolls won’t fit in those things. Dispensers are only getting larger which to me means rolls are only getting bigger. They’re very likely not rolled as tightly because they are softer and they very likely have less sheets because the sheets are now 2 or 3 ply. So really it’s 2 or 3 times the total amount of sheets, just plied together ? From the manufacturing side we know that softwood is cheaper than hardwood, and maybe that’s driven the all of the “softest” toilet paper campaigns. ? Just a thought for which I have no evidence
anjel 2y ago
Because the Koch Bros are only billionaires
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

48 points by Anon84 2y ago

vanous 2y ago

Next thing we will see is a roll of 1000 sheets... Just really tiny ones...

upon_drumhead 2y ago
just wait until they realize they can perforate down the middle and double the sheet count!

xnx 2y ago

$/pound would be a more sensible metric to price compare. Still gameable, but less so than rolls/sheets/double/mega/ply/etc.

tanseydavid 2y ago

Looks like a roll of cash register receipt paper these days.

antisthenes 2y ago

What about thickness? There's no a way a roll of toilet paper that's 3x as long would fit in a standard holder.

xnyan 2y ago
The thickness of TP is manipulated upwards by adding voids between the layers, this is marketed as "air pockets, air cushions, etc) but it's nothing more than a marketing trick to explain the cheapening of TP While it's true you don't want an very dense paper to maximize absorbency, the large voids in TP don't affect it's absorbency in a significant way because they are thin and weak and completely colapse when wet. Get rid of the gimmicky air pockets and you'd decrease the thickness by half at least. Edit: you can see this for yourself with a little experiment at home. Get yourself a air-puffed TP (Walmart's house brand is a particularly egregious example) and drizzle a little water on on it, you'll be able to see it's volume actually decreases as it's fluffy air pockets colapse when wet. Compare this to the behavior of a non-scam fluffy absorber like Sodium Polyacrylate (diapers) which will swell in size when wet.

xyst 2y ago

I switched to bidet at home anyways. Keep a pack of baby wipes in my bag for when I unfortunately need to use public (or private) restrooms stocked with the inferior toilet paper (all TP is useless in comparison to bidet or wet wipes). Single ply, double ply. No difference to me. I still feel dirty/unclean after wiping my ass with dry af TP that has a strong tendency to tear

georgel 2y ago
I would get one, but my apartment lease forbids them on "water damage" reasons. I've only seen a clause like this in my most recent lease.
- xnyan 2y ago
  The reason for this is that bidets have had a massive upswing in popularity, and unfortunately many are poor quality and/or fit, installed incorrectly, or both. My family mostly works in the trades and I did as well in college, would not call myself a pro but I'm the friend you call when you have a plumbing problem and want an opinion before calling in a real plumber. The number of poorly fitting bidet attachment seats that have been badly installed I've seen is quite high. If I owned the bathroom and someone wanted to add a bidet, I too would have my concerns. A ban is crazy, but I think it's totally valid to at least have a plumber inspect and sign off on the work.
  - lancesells 2y ago
    Not sure what you mean by poorly fitting. I've only purchased one bidet attachment but i don't see how it could do any damage unless you don't turn the water off or empty the toilet tank on install. Are you saying the water line leaks on some bidets after install?
    - javagram 2y ago
      Not a plumber but I’ve installed a few bidets in my homes and it’s easy to see how the flexible supply line could leak if tightened too much or not enough. Toilet braided steel supply lines themselves are supposedly supposed to be replaced every 5-10 years to reduce the risk of bursting. I put water alarms connected to my security system behind each bidet equipped toilet.

PhasmaFelis 2y ago

> The note from P&G on my 1992 toilet paper said Charmin Ultra had shrunk “because it is so thick we couldn't put as many sheets on and keep the rolls the same size.” > Uh-huh. I mean...that makes plenty of sense. My parents love this ultra-thin single-ply crap that gets plenty of footage on the roll, but it doesn't really matter when you have to pull off six feet and fold it a dozen times to get a good wipe.

al_borland 2y ago
I buy Charmin Ultra Strong. The “Super Mega” rolls are absolutely massive. They for sure would not fit in a lot of standard holders. When I was buying a holder recently I was actually worried about what would fit in most standard designs and bought one that seemed to be the most forgiving. While I agree that the “Super Mega” and “6 rolls in 1” marketing is silly nonsense, the size of the rolls today are comically large. I actually think the Super Mega are too big. It’s 362 sheets of 2-ply, which is like 724 sheets of single-ply (and likely a thicker ply than decades old stuff). The benchmark from the article seemed to be 650 sheets of single-ply. Maybe the industry just needs a new metric. Measuring stuff based on some made up roll size isn’t helpful. We can all see how big the rolls are when we’re buying the stuff. Does anyone actually look at the sheet count?

pupppet 2y ago

Thank goodness for Costco, their rolls are huge. The abundance of paper dust that comes off their rolls however I can do without.

jasomill 2y ago
To align with numbers cited in the article: Kirkland Signature 30 pack[1]: 380 sheets/roll 4.5"×4" sheets $23.49 cost per pack $0.016/square foot Kirkland Signature Ultra Soft 36 pack[2]: 231 sheets/roll 4.5"×4" sheets $24.99/pack $0.024/square foot Charmin Ultra Soft 30 pack from Costco[3] 213 sheets/roll 4.5"×4.2" sheets $27.49/pack $0.033/square foot [1] https://www.costco.com/kirkland-signature-bath-tissue%2c-2-ply%2c-380-sheets%2c-30-rolls.product.100645583.html https://www.costco.com/kirkland-signature-bath-tissue%2c-2-p... [2] https://www.costco.com/kirkland-signature-ultra-soft-bath-tissue%2c-2-ply%2c-231-sheets%2c-36-rolls.product.4000206004.html https://www.costco.com/kirkland-signature-ultra-soft-bath-ti... [3] https://www.costco.com/charmin-ultra-soft-bath-tissue%2c-2-ply%2c-213-sheets%2c-30-rolls.product.4000221238.html https://www.costco.com/charmin-ultra-soft-bath-tissue%2c-2-p...
al_borland 2y ago
Most of my family swears by Costco TP, and I don’t understand it. I think it’s trash compared to Charmin Ultra Strong. I dread needing to use the toilet when visiting.

tedunangst 2y ago

How much money are people spending on toilet paper? Worrying about cost per wipe seems like one of the least economically productive things one can do.

c22 2y ago
We were starting to blow our household/toiletries budget every month so we found another brand we all agreed on that's a little lower quality but has more sheets per roll and we started landing in budget again. I didn't do any analysis beyond that.
- elashri 2y ago
  I would suggest actually doing a small analysis on the idea of replacing that with a bidet. It will be surprising how it is more cost effective and comfortable option.
  - al_borland 2y ago
    I’ve been hearing people talk about the miracles of bidets online for years. I took a trip to Tokyo a few years back and thought I’d finally see what all the fuss was about. I have to say, I absolutely hated it. After the first week I gave up even trying to use it. The seat warmers were also pretty unpleasant, imo. There were some pretty cool automatic seat covers that I liked, but most of the other stuff I wasn’t a fan of.
    - 486sx33 2y ago
      Half of the awfulness is the surprise, the second half is getting the smallest possible delta between water and sphincter temperature. Lol ! I think bidets are kind of cool, but other than for your private ensuite they’re pretty impractical. Toto has the best temperature control systems though IMHO
- stavros 2y ago
  I'll second the bidet. It's not only more economical, but so, so much cleaner.

DonHopkins 2y ago

Stinkflation.

shortsunblack 2y ago

Producers should be required to make disclosures in officially recognized boards/gazettes before substantially changing quality/composition/recipe/materials/function of any good. Make it 3 to 6 months. A consumer should not be screwed for buying an inferior product for the same price because a producer decided to reduce quality to increase margins. It's a form of information asymmetry that leads to inefficiency in markets. This works even more easily if the product already needs to be registered in some gov't registry. For example books and with the case of substituting good quality paper with worse quality paper (less gsm or such).

euroderf 2y ago
The all-purpose retort is "but that is proprietary information!"

SoftTalker 2y ago

I buy Scott toilet paper and AFAICT it's the same as it ever was. I like it because there is a lot of paper on a roll. Edit: Well I see that TFA reports that Scott tissue rolls have shrunk also. I never noticed. I was pretty sure they still say "1000 sheets per roll"

Joker_vD 2y ago

> On top of that, many companies, especially in China, play “the inventory game,” McClay adds. They buy huge quantities of pulp on spot when prices are low — sending the price upward — and avoid buying at the higher rates, sending the price back down. ...shouldn't that, on the contrary, stabilise the prices? You know, with the buffers now in place?

Danieru 2y ago
Indeed, why are th western companies not themselves stocking up in gluts? Always buying at spot prices is rather unsophisticated behavior. I'd expect a mega corp to operate a team of experts to identify opportunities. Why are they instead taking the market price and leaving no buffer?

SoftTalker 2y ago

Here is why they do it. This happens with almost all consumer products by the way: candy bars, breakfast cereal, you name it. They start out with a size and a price. At some point they start to decrease the size, but keep the price the same. They don't call your attention to this. Most people don't really notice. At some point they increase the size and the price, with splashy labeling and advertising "new larger size." You might notice the price increase, but you figure well you're getting more. Repeat.

bradknowles 2y ago
It’s called “shrinkflation”.

486sx33 2y ago

TP is certainly softer, more comfortable and has more plys than ever. A per sheet analysis of a roll likely isn’t the best comparison as there is absolutely an upper bound on the total roll size, especially in older homes with built into the wall ceramic toilet paper holders. Those suckers confirm to me that toilet paper rolls are larger than ever because lots of new toilet paper rolls won’t fit in those things. Dispensers are only getting larger which to me means rolls are only getting bigger. They’re very likely not rolled as tightly because they are softer and they very likely have less sheets because the sheets are now 2 or 3 ply. So really it’s 2 or 3 times the total amount of sheets, just plied together ? From the manufacturing side we know that softwood is cheaper than hardwood, and maybe that’s driven the all of the “softest” toilet paper campaigns. ? Just a thought for which I have no evidence

anjel 2y ago

Because the Koch Bros are only billionaires

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]