7 ms·

Maybe this is a consequence of the same problem in that women are not taught to be as assertive, but why wouldn't you just say "Hey, no thanks, I want to play t

by imgabe 14y ago

Maybe this is a consequence of the same problem in that women are not taught to be as assertive, but why wouldn't you just say "Hey, no thanks, I want to play the game for myself. If you expect me to write an accurate review of your game I need to actually play it."

Mystitat 14y ago
The response is irrelevant. The point is that the PR reps made her feel like an outsider in her industry.
- imgabe 14y ago
  And I wholeheartedly agree that those are lousy PR reps. But what's the takeaway here? The people who are actually reading this article likely overwhelmingly agree with her. If you address your complaint about someone's action, not to the person doing that action, but to a large anonymous audience, how do you expect it to be rectified?
  - Mystitat 14y ago
    I take issue with the specific wording in your comment, "...but why wouldn't you just say..." It makes it sound like discrimination is not a big deal, because if you were just "taught to be assertive," you could handle it. There is nothing she could have done to prevent the discrimination other than being a man. The entire article is set up to emphasize the way that anyone should be able to tell she's a gamer from the way she holds her hands on the keyboard, and yet they still treated her like someone who does not belong in the industry. The point of the article is to increase awareness of discrimination among the "large anonymous audience." It is offensive to suggest that victims of discrimination should just act differently to prevent it.
    - imgabe 14y ago
      So, if we're all aware of discrimination it will go away? Maybe, the PR guy she talked to will see her article and make the connection that it was him she was talking about. Maybe. If she had spoken directly to him about it, we could be certain that he knew his behavior was not appreciated. If he's not hopelessly clueless, he might even modify his behavior in the future. The number of people acting in a discriminatory fashion would then be decreased by one. That is something that could be considered progress. I'm on your side here. I would also like to live in a world where there's no discrimination. I don't think we get there by "raising awareness" among people who are largely already aware of the problem. I honestly don't see how it's offensive to suggest something a person could do to bring about the change that they want to see. Yes, you shouldn't have to. Yes, in a perfect world, nobody would ever encounter a jerk. But we don't live in that world. You have little to no control over how other people act. The only control you have is in how you act. Simply acknowledging that discrimination exists is not going to change anything if you don't confront the people who are doing the discriminating.
      - goldensaucer 14y ago
        It's offensive because, even if you're on her side, you're displacing responsibility from the offender. It's not her job to individually confront and educate every condescending PR rep. That's a grind, and also only effective on a micro-level. By writing another piece on sexism at E3, she contributes to the ever-growing pool of them; the more the community is aware of such behavior, the better equipped they are to recognize it when it happens.
        kilian 14y ago
        But isn't that just practicality? Stepping completely away from this specific case, I have found that people that are the most effective in changing things are the ones that say 'I think it's your fault, but I'm going to fix it anyway'. Naming it like this article is obviously important and I also don't think anyone thinks she is in any way responsible or in the wrong (quite the contrary) but the most effective way to make an offender change his (or her) ways is to simply communicate with him (or her).
    - anigbrowl 14y ago
      The entire article is set up to emphasize the way that anyone should be able to tell she's a gamer from the way she holds her hands on the keyboard That's kind of egotistical. I have played computer games since I was a kid and WASD is natural for me too, but I don't think of myself as 'a gamer' because I probably devote less than 1 hour/week to games.
      - UnFleshedOne 14y ago
        A bit unrelated to the article: first thing I do on any game is change WASD to arrow keys (and swap the mouse to the left). Without much thinking I would assume people who don't do that are at most casual gamers. :) I definitely wouldn't see somebody going for WASD and think "this must be a serious gamer".
  - batemanesque 14y ago
    because there is a great deal of sexism across the whole culture; it's hardly an issue caused or presented by a single person.
- AskHugo 14y ago
  The way many women in tech are treated is not acceptable, and I think that the situation is gradually getting better. That said, there is no reason why we shouldn't suggest that those who get pushed around should stand up for themselves in the time being, who knows, maybe it will speed up the process.
  - saraid216 14y ago
    If you read the article, you'll note that she does do that. A lot. And she records the common response.
- grannyg00se 14y ago
  One could also say that she allowed the PR reps to make her feel that way by not speaking up. "I better play it for you" wasn't the first thing the guy said when he saw her. Clearly he had made some assumptions based on her gender, and possibly some previous experiences. But there was a lead up to that statement, where apparently she sat there silently ignoring his questions, looking puzzled. This confirmed his expectations that she had no idea what she was doing. People are going to make judgements based on what they think they know. They do it all the time and sometimes it is a completely subconscious process. Sometimes it is deliberate. Sometimes it is a result of a lifetime of conditioning. It happens with gender, height, skin colour, attire, and pretty much anything else that you can quickly identify by looking at a person. If someone is judging you incorrectly, help them out and say so. It might be nothing more than an honest mistake.
rbehrends 14y ago
The problem is that there's a double standard at play here, and men and women get different reactions to being assertive [1]. Men are often considered to be stronger for it; women may risk being labeled as "bitchy". [1] http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/12/ask-more http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/12/ask-more
- imgabe 14y ago
  This is a real problem. The situation isn't exactly analogous to a salary negotiation though. The balance of power between reporter/PR guy is much more equal than between employer/employee. Yes, if she encounters that guy again he might think that she's "that bitchy reporter", but he's still going to want her to write positively about whatever game he's promoting. If he has even the slightest idea of how to do his job, he might appreciate the insight into how to make the demo the best possible experience for her. There's a good chance he walked away thinking "I sure did a good job showing that lady reporter how to play our game".
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  I don't buy that. I go out of my way to be polite because I'm a bit old-fashioned that way, and sometimes I think I should be more assertive. But there's a difference between asserting your will and simply communicating information, such as 'oh it's OK, I play a lot of shooters actually.' Frankly, it sounds like the writer was spaced out and didn't give the guy any conversational material to work with, beyond the single syllable of 'yes...'

by imgabe 14y ago

Mystitat 14y ago

The response is irrelevant. The point is that the PR reps made her feel like an outsider in her industry.

imgabe 14y ago
And I wholeheartedly agree that those are lousy PR reps. But what's the takeaway here? The people who are actually reading this article likely overwhelmingly agree with her. If you address your complaint about someone's action, not to the person doing that action, but to a large anonymous audience, how do you expect it to be rectified?
- Mystitat 14y ago
  I take issue with the specific wording in your comment, "...but why wouldn't you just say..." It makes it sound like discrimination is not a big deal, because if you were just "taught to be assertive," you could handle it. There is nothing she could have done to prevent the discrimination other than being a man. The entire article is set up to emphasize the way that anyone should be able to tell she's a gamer from the way she holds her hands on the keyboard, and yet they still treated her like someone who does not belong in the industry. The point of the article is to increase awareness of discrimination among the "large anonymous audience." It is offensive to suggest that victims of discrimination should just act differently to prevent it.
  - imgabe 14y ago
    So, if we're all aware of discrimination it will go away? Maybe, the PR guy she talked to will see her article and make the connection that it was him she was talking about. Maybe. If she had spoken directly to him about it, we could be certain that he knew his behavior was not appreciated. If he's not hopelessly clueless, he might even modify his behavior in the future. The number of people acting in a discriminatory fashion would then be decreased by one. That is something that could be considered progress. I'm on your side here. I would also like to live in a world where there's no discrimination. I don't think we get there by "raising awareness" among people who are largely already aware of the problem. I honestly don't see how it's offensive to suggest something a person could do to bring about the change that they want to see. Yes, you shouldn't have to. Yes, in a perfect world, nobody would ever encounter a jerk. But we don't live in that world. You have little to no control over how other people act. The only control you have is in how you act. Simply acknowledging that discrimination exists is not going to change anything if you don't confront the people who are doing the discriminating.
    - goldensaucer 14y ago
      It's offensive because, even if you're on her side, you're displacing responsibility from the offender. It's not her job to individually confront and educate every condescending PR rep. That's a grind, and also only effective on a micro-level. By writing another piece on sexism at E3, she contributes to the ever-growing pool of them; the more the community is aware of such behavior, the better equipped they are to recognize it when it happens.
      - kilian 14y ago
        But isn't that just practicality? Stepping completely away from this specific case, I have found that people that are the most effective in changing things are the ones that say 'I think it's your fault, but I'm going to fix it anyway'. Naming it like this article is obviously important and I also don't think anyone thinks she is in any way responsible or in the wrong (quite the contrary) but the most effective way to make an offender change his (or her) ways is to simply communicate with him (or her).
  - anigbrowl 14y ago
    The entire article is set up to emphasize the way that anyone should be able to tell she's a gamer from the way she holds her hands on the keyboard That's kind of egotistical. I have played computer games since I was a kid and WASD is natural for me too, but I don't think of myself as 'a gamer' because I probably devote less than 1 hour/week to games.
    - UnFleshedOne 14y ago
      A bit unrelated to the article: first thing I do on any game is change WASD to arrow keys (and swap the mouse to the left). Without much thinking I would assume people who don't do that are at most casual gamers. :) I definitely wouldn't see somebody going for WASD and think "this must be a serious gamer".
- batemanesque 14y ago
  because there is a great deal of sexism across the whole culture; it's hardly an issue caused or presented by a single person.
AskHugo 14y ago
The way many women in tech are treated is not acceptable, and I think that the situation is gradually getting better. That said, there is no reason why we shouldn't suggest that those who get pushed around should stand up for themselves in the time being, who knows, maybe it will speed up the process.
- saraid216 14y ago
  If you read the article, you'll note that she does do that. A lot. And she records the common response.
grannyg00se 14y ago
One could also say that she allowed the PR reps to make her feel that way by not speaking up. "I better play it for you" wasn't the first thing the guy said when he saw her. Clearly he had made some assumptions based on her gender, and possibly some previous experiences. But there was a lead up to that statement, where apparently she sat there silently ignoring his questions, looking puzzled. This confirmed his expectations that she had no idea what she was doing. People are going to make judgements based on what they think they know. They do it all the time and sometimes it is a completely subconscious process. Sometimes it is deliberate. Sometimes it is a result of a lifetime of conditioning. It happens with gender, height, skin colour, attire, and pretty much anything else that you can quickly identify by looking at a person. If someone is judging you incorrectly, help them out and say so. It might be nothing more than an honest mistake.

rbehrends 14y ago

The problem is that there's a double standard at play here, and men and women get different reactions to being assertive [1]. Men are often considered to be stronger for it; women may risk being labeled as "bitchy". [1] http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/12/ask-more http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/12/ask-more

imgabe 14y ago
This is a real problem. The situation isn't exactly analogous to a salary negotiation though. The balance of power between reporter/PR guy is much more equal than between employer/employee. Yes, if she encounters that guy again he might think that she's "that bitchy reporter", but he's still going to want her to write positively about whatever game he's promoting. If he has even the slightest idea of how to do his job, he might appreciate the insight into how to make the demo the best possible experience for her. There's a good chance he walked away thinking "I sure did a good job showing that lady reporter how to play our game".
anigbrowl 14y ago
I don't buy that. I go out of my way to be polite because I'm a bit old-fashioned that way, and sometimes I think I should be more assertive. But there's a difference between asserting your will and simply communicating information, such as 'oh it's OK, I play a lot of shooters actually.' Frankly, it sounds like the writer was spaced out and didn't give the guy any conversational material to work with, beyond the single syllable of 'yes...'