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Amazing even in this modern era how much of culture revolves around mythology and provincialism. If we skipped the flag waving and the mod365 business, not to m

by dr42 14y ago

Amazing even in this modern era how much of culture revolves around mythology and provincialism. If we skipped the flag waving and the mod365 business, not to mention the time wasted bothering the deities (in triplicate) we might actually emerge from this age of mythology with some real progress.

jacoblyles 14y ago
Every time someone tries this, it leads to some sort of inhumane dystopia (french revolution, communism). Nationalism is flawed, but imposing one set of values from the international order will stifle cultural and legal competition, and thereby progress. Religion is flawed, but it causes people to form tight-knit communities, gives them psychological comfort, and moves them to act morally (see: http://jacobexmachina.blogspot.com/2012/05/how-atheists-misunderstand-religion.html http://jacobexmachina.blogspot.com/2012/05/how-atheists-misu...). Just because something is not true does not mean it is not useful. You might be comfortable living as a hyper-rationalist. But most people get joy from celebrations, myths, and community. You ever wonder why harvest festivals and winter solstice festivals are so widespread in disparate cultures? It serves a deep psychological human need. A rationalist sees a tradition and thinks "this is irrational, abolish it!". The conservative sees a tradition and thinks "people must have put this in place for a reason, let's try to figure out what that is". Hyper rationalist visions of human progress start with rejecting humanity, which is why they usually turn out so bad.
pdx 14y ago
I bet I can guess your age. I'd say you're about 19 or 20, maybe as old as 22. How did I do? That's the age I was when I felt as you do. Now, I realize that rituals are important and useful. I also realize that, any system that puts the good of others above the good of self, when needed, is what gives us much of our progress as a species. It doesn't matter so much, what that system is, but it does matter that such a system exists. The larger the definition of "others" is, the better. We see this daily, where countries where tribalism trumps nationalism are always at a disadvantage. When you go beyond nationalism, to religion, you have a force that can move mountains. The perfect world you envision, of no nationalism (I assume because of one world government) and no religion, seems like a recipe for decline and decay. Also, by human nature, I think, if nationalism and religion were taken off the table, we'd revert to tribalism within that framework.
- AlexFromBelgium 14y ago
  ".. if nationalism and religion were taken off the table, we'd revert to tribalism within that framework." It's all tribalism really. Just on a larger scale. We never evolved beyond any of it. I think dr42 was talking about moving to a radically different perception of the world. Not just bigger or smaller..
  - vishaldpatel 14y ago
    Either I'm a terrible story teller, or you guys have some seriously large chips on your shoulders. I'll take responsibility for this one guys, I'm sorry. I just wanted to share about the time when a school full of kids, singing horribly out of sync woke me up laughing on a regular basis. The rest of it was just context.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
- dr42 14y ago
  nope, 42, as my handle says. Sorry, not even close. I think you misread my words and interpreted it as idealism. I was positing that when we move out of the dark ages of believing in mythologies that are outdated rationalizations of the physical world, we might, as a species begin to make real progress. However, while we remain mired in provincial (tribal) thought, and in paying homage to the deities, we will continue to circle around the "my tribe/god is better than yours". I think we need to move past that to make real progress as a species. some of your views are interesting, regarding tribalism - which you seem to be implying we aren't currently living within that framework. I think that we are still living in a time of tribalism, we dress up with flags and uniforms, but it still boils down to the same thing. I think we differ hugely on religion though, I don't agree that religion has done anything like moving mountains. In fact, it's hard to think of any positive outcome from the past few thousand years. Religion is a means by which a few control the many. Faith on the other hand is a personal choice that for some is useful in dealing with their lives. see Karl Marx for further information...
deleted 14y ago
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by dr42 14y ago

jacoblyles 14y ago

Every time someone tries this, it leads to some sort of inhumane dystopia (french revolution, communism). Nationalism is flawed, but imposing one set of values from the international order will stifle cultural and legal competition, and thereby progress. Religion is flawed, but it causes people to form tight-knit communities, gives them psychological comfort, and moves them to act morally (see: http://jacobexmachina.blogspot.com/2012/05/how-atheists-misunderstand-religion.html http://jacobexmachina.blogspot.com/2012/05/how-atheists-misu...). Just because something is not true does not mean it is not useful. You might be comfortable living as a hyper-rationalist. But most people get joy from celebrations, myths, and community. You ever wonder why harvest festivals and winter solstice festivals are so widespread in disparate cultures? It serves a deep psychological human need. A rationalist sees a tradition and thinks "this is irrational, abolish it!". The conservative sees a tradition and thinks "people must have put this in place for a reason, let's try to figure out what that is". Hyper rationalist visions of human progress start with rejecting humanity, which is why they usually turn out so bad.

pdx 14y ago

I bet I can guess your age. I'd say you're about 19 or 20, maybe as old as 22. How did I do? That's the age I was when I felt as you do. Now, I realize that rituals are important and useful. I also realize that, any system that puts the good of others above the good of self, when needed, is what gives us much of our progress as a species. It doesn't matter so much, what that system is, but it does matter that such a system exists. The larger the definition of "others" is, the better. We see this daily, where countries where tribalism trumps nationalism are always at a disadvantage. When you go beyond nationalism, to religion, you have a force that can move mountains. The perfect world you envision, of no nationalism (I assume because of one world government) and no religion, seems like a recipe for decline and decay. Also, by human nature, I think, if nationalism and religion were taken off the table, we'd revert to tribalism within that framework.

AlexFromBelgium 14y ago
".. if nationalism and religion were taken off the table, we'd revert to tribalism within that framework." It's all tribalism really. Just on a larger scale. We never evolved beyond any of it. I think dr42 was talking about moving to a radically different perception of the world. Not just bigger or smaller..
- vishaldpatel 14y ago
  Either I'm a terrible story teller, or you guys have some seriously large chips on your shoulders. I'll take responsibility for this one guys, I'm sorry. I just wanted to share about the time when a school full of kids, singing horribly out of sync woke me up laughing on a regular basis. The rest of it was just context.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
dr42 14y ago
nope, 42, as my handle says. Sorry, not even close. I think you misread my words and interpreted it as idealism. I was positing that when we move out of the dark ages of believing in mythologies that are outdated rationalizations of the physical world, we might, as a species begin to make real progress. However, while we remain mired in provincial (tribal) thought, and in paying homage to the deities, we will continue to circle around the "my tribe/god is better than yours". I think we need to move past that to make real progress as a species. some of your views are interesting, regarding tribalism - which you seem to be implying we aren't currently living within that framework. I think that we are still living in a time of tribalism, we dress up with flags and uniforms, but it still boils down to the same thing. I think we differ hugely on religion though, I don't agree that religion has done anything like moving mountains. In fact, it's hard to think of any positive outcome from the past few thousand years. Religion is a means by which a few control the many. Faith on the other hand is a personal choice that for some is useful in dealing with their lives. see Karl Marx for further information...

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]