23 ms·

Isn't it what the companies already do? specially google

diggan 2y ago
The playbook of "Do something legally gray > raise funding & expand > pivot away from legally gray OR employ lawyers to make it not legally gray" is basically the standard playbook of startups, the examples are countless: AirBnb, YouTube, Spotify, Uber, OpenAI, etc, etc... I'm sure it isn't always a bad idea, but struggling to come up with good examples for when the outcome from doing so have been more than just "shareholder value went up".
- sdoering 2y ago
  It’s the ideology of disruption. As if this were an inherently good thing. They could go the democratic route and raise awareness, create enough support within the constituency for their idea and have the democratic institutions adapt the respective laws. Or they can decide that they are above such trivialities as the law and democratic process, move fast and break things and grab the fortune they feel entitled to have. That’s the ideology behind this anti-democratic capitalist system.
- chucksmash 2y ago
  Airbnb, Spotify, YouTube and Uber wouldn't see shareholder value increase if people didn't find those services useful. The number doesn't just magically go up if you build something nobody wants.
  - diggan 2y ago
    Sure, but also, "shareholder value go up" just isn't very interesting or overall helpful to the world. It's helpful to the shareholders, sure, but beyond that?
scarmig 2y ago
Mass scraping the Internet and linking to different places was also legally questionable until lawyers hammered it out. Would the world be a better place if search engines had been preemptively ruled illegal?
- lucianbr 2y ago
  As a regular joe, try to do something legally questionable against Oracle, and then "have the lawyers hammer it out". See how much of a good place the world is in this case. The problem is this stuff is highly asymmetric. Things are always "hammered out" in their favor, because you cannot afford to be a party to the "hammering out".
  - wombatpm 2y ago
    When things are hammered out, one party is the hammer and the other party is the nail.
  - Jensson 2y ago
    Regular joes use adblockers and torrents etc to do legally questionable things all the time, so not sure what you mean. Personally I played hundreds of pirated games growing up for free, don't personally know anyone who got into trouble for doing that sort of thing.
    - lucianbr 2y ago
      People did get in trouble for pirating content. That you don't know any of them personally is irrelevant. I don't personally know anyone who got radiation poisoning, so I suppose radiation is not toxic? Anyway, you downloading torrents is in no way "hammering out a gray area". It's just you being a small fish and slipping under the radar. The area is just as gray as before. Try to do something significant with the pirated content, as the AI startups do, and you'll immediately get trouble.
      - stale2002 2y ago
        > Try to do something significant with the pirated content, as the AI startups do, and you'll immediately get trouble. No they won't. 80% of the people I meet at tech events either have an AI startup or are working at one. Basically all of them are doing legally questionable stuff, when it comes to copyright law. Anyone who has ever trained a model, or finetuned a model, is likely using other people's data. This is universal. It is almost everyone. And yet, despite this being a gray area, basically nobody is getting into trouble for this. We are all getting away with it. And there is only a singular lawsuit about this against like 4 companies and nobody else. (midjourney, runwayML, Stable diffusion, and deviant art) So the point stands. Almost nobody is getting into trouble, despite this behavior being widespead everywhere, and if you don't do the same thing then you are going to fall behind and fail.

The playbook of "Do something legally gray > raise funding & expand > pivot away from legally gray OR employ lawyers to make it not legally gray" is basically the standard playbook of startups, the examples are countless: AirBnb, YouTube, Spotify, Uber, OpenAI, etc, etc... I'm sure it isn't always a bad idea, but struggling to come up with good examples for when the outcome from doing so have been more than just "shareholder value went up".

sdoering 2y ago
It’s the ideology of disruption. As if this were an inherently good thing. They could go the democratic route and raise awareness, create enough support within the constituency for their idea and have the democratic institutions adapt the respective laws. Or they can decide that they are above such trivialities as the law and democratic process, move fast and break things and grab the fortune they feel entitled to have. That’s the ideology behind this anti-democratic capitalist system.
chucksmash 2y ago
Airbnb, Spotify, YouTube and Uber wouldn't see shareholder value increase if people didn't find those services useful. The number doesn't just magically go up if you build something nobody wants.
- diggan 2y ago
  Sure, but also, "shareholder value go up" just isn't very interesting or overall helpful to the world. It's helpful to the shareholders, sure, but beyond that?

scarmig 2y ago

Mass scraping the Internet and linking to different places was also legally questionable until lawyers hammered it out. Would the world be a better place if search engines had been preemptively ruled illegal?

lucianbr 2y ago
As a regular joe, try to do something legally questionable against Oracle, and then "have the lawyers hammer it out". See how much of a good place the world is in this case. The problem is this stuff is highly asymmetric. Things are always "hammered out" in their favor, because you cannot afford to be a party to the "hammering out".
- wombatpm 2y ago
  When things are hammered out, one party is the hammer and the other party is the nail.
- Jensson 2y ago
  Regular joes use adblockers and torrents etc to do legally questionable things all the time, so not sure what you mean. Personally I played hundreds of pirated games growing up for free, don't personally know anyone who got into trouble for doing that sort of thing.
  - lucianbr 2y ago
    People did get in trouble for pirating content. That you don't know any of them personally is irrelevant. I don't personally know anyone who got radiation poisoning, so I suppose radiation is not toxic? Anyway, you downloading torrents is in no way "hammering out a gray area". It's just you being a small fish and slipping under the radar. The area is just as gray as before. Try to do something significant with the pirated content, as the AI startups do, and you'll immediately get trouble.
    - stale2002 2y ago
      > Try to do something significant with the pirated content, as the AI startups do, and you'll immediately get trouble. No they won't. 80% of the people I meet at tech events either have an AI startup or are working at one. Basically all of them are doing legally questionable stuff, when it comes to copyright law. Anyone who has ever trained a model, or finetuned a model, is likely using other people's data. This is universal. It is almost everyone. And yet, despite this being a gray area, basically nobody is getting into trouble for this. We are all getting away with it. And there is only a singular lawsuit about this against like 4 companies and nobody else. (midjourney, runwayML, Stable diffusion, and deviant art) So the point stands. Almost nobody is getting into trouble, despite this behavior being widespead everywhere, and if you don't do the same thing then you are going to fall behind and fail.