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Increasing Retention Without Increasing Study Time [pdf]
- trwhite 2y agoI recently read and enjoyed "A Mind for Numbers" by Barbara Oakley, full of lots of techniques for learning maths and science
- ngetchell 2y ago[2007]
- Almondsetat 2y agoIt's only a four page article about a particular spaced study strategy. Nothing really groundbreaking nor a comprehensive collection of techniques
- boredemployee 2y agoany other recommendation for articles regarding techniques that works for most people?
- sva_ 2y agoThe default algorithm in Anki, in case you don't know it
- oehtXRwMkIs 2y agoOr not, since they recently added FSRS as an alternative.
- michaelcampbell 2y agoYou're both right - SM2 is still the default in Anki.
- watwut 2y agoIt is super unlikely that an algorithm that was made based on feels would turn out to be the most effective. Especially since it requires some learning and errors to even learn how to use it.
- CuriouslyC 2y agoThis is pretty much the current state of the art in learning research: https://bjorklab.psych.ucla.edu/research/ https://bjorklab.psych.ucla.edu/research/
- closed 2y agoFrom a more applied angle, a book like "10 steps to complex learning" might be helpful. I come from a similar cog psych background as the Bjork Lab, so am a big fan of their research, but books like 10 steps come from instructional design, which is a bit more focused on the big picture (designing a whole course vs individual mechanisms).
- jimhefferon 2y agoThanks for the tip.
- uolmir 2y agoThis is good stuff but I'll say that it isn't as comprehensive as all that. These studies and findings are almost entirely focused on simple recall knowledge (isolated facts, vocabulary). That's an important part of learning certainly and it informs research on learning higher order concepts but it's not the full story. Just to name one example, folks might look into research on conceptual change theory (eg Chi or Posner). This theory helps explain why a concept like electricity is so challenging to learn. The reason, in brief, being that naive conceptions make a category error and think of electricity as a thing rather than a process. And this theory then informs instructional practice. Specifically, teachers should be aware of difficult concepts and should design activities that force students to confront the contradictions between their naive models and more accurate/complete ones. Mickie Chi also has fascinations research on active learning (ICAP) and related work on the effectiveness of peer learning.
- authorfly 2y agoThanks for your example of the category error here. Are there other cases though? For example, sometimes I doubt my understanding of gradient descent because it is very hard to implement in code on data and show error reducing over time (writing from scratch). But in some examples of a few nodes I can calculate it perfectly. I can do the Maths manually. What error might I be making? For the future, is there a list of types of errors?
- kqr 2y agoThe comment I wrote below is weird. What I mean to say is google for articles on writing good prompts. The rest matters less. ----- Ignore this: Spaced repetition, if you can stick with it, works. The details around schedules etc. don't matter as much as doing it in a way that you can keep up. Also writing good prompts is important. I have yet to write more extensively about this but here is a start: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41126734 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41126734
- wahnfrieden 2y agoFSRS v5 is state of the art
- lxm 2y agohttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/19288640-how-we-learn https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/19288640-how-we-learn
- david_allison 2y agoDunlosky J, Rawson KA, Marsh EJ, Nathan MJ, Willingham DT. Improving Students' Learning With Effective Learning Techniques: Promising Directions From Cognitive and Educational Psychology. Psychol Sci Public Interest. 2013 Jan;14(1):4-58. doi: 10.1177/1529100612453266. PMID: 26173288.
- adamgordonbell 2y agoScott Young has a lot on this, including going deep on the literature and explaining it to populist student audience: https://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/the-best-articles-on-learning/ https://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/the-best-articles-on-learni... For instance, on memory: https://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/2019/02/15/memory/ https://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/2019/02/15/memory/
- highcountess 2y agoIt's just typical learning "science" fluff
- bdjsiqoocwk 2y agoThe simplest way of increasing retention is being interested in the subject.
- rmbyrro 2y agoThe topic isn't about simplicity, but performance and efficiency.
- Jtsummers 2y agoSimple, but not sufficient since you still need to pair your interest with some methods of study and practice. Which methods of studying are more effective or efficient is the question they're researching.
- IncreasePosts 2y agoYou can just make yourself interested in whatever you want? If not, then it probably isn't the simplest way.
- bdjsiqoocwk 2y agoI would counter, why are you spending time learning something you're not interested in?
- viraptor 2y agoReal life usefulness, money, time investment for future use, learning prerequisites for the things you are interested in, etc. There are so many reasons...
- kjrfghslkdjfl 2y ago[dead]
- michaelcampbell 2y agoI couldn't care less about aspects of my company's business, but I damn sure need to know them in order to get paid.
- wahnfrieden 2y agoI’ll mention that I’ve gone full-time on an iOS/macOS tool for learning Japanese through reading called Manabi Reader: https://reader.manabi.io https://reader.manabi.io It combines reading and flashcards, such that it tracks every word and kanji you read and learn in order to show you analytics on what you need to learn to be able to read something or achieve JLPT goals, and highlights unknown/learning words in texts. Next up for the flashcard part is to replace the SM2 algorithm with FSRS for the flashcards, as well as having flashcards get passively reviewed simply by reading content. I also suspect people are missing out on speed of learning when reviewing flashcards one at a time for hours. Besides actively recalling reviewing flashcards passively while reading, I’ll experiment with other review techniques like seeing a page at a time of vocab / revealable answers. Our minds absorb at the periphery of our vision and scanning/inputting a bunch of information at once, too. I’m unconvinced flashcard UI is the final expression of forgetting curve research based learning apps Also working on Reader features such as manga/pdf/youtube/game emulators, plus expanding to all languages.
- shahzaibmushtaq 2y ago"Teach others what are you trying to teach yourself better" is the best long-term retention strategy in my personal experience.
- wahnfrieden 2y agoFor language acquisition?
- jakderrida 2y agoSí
- shahzaibmushtaq 2y agoAlso try for other things that are difficult to grasp.
- 082349872349872 2y agoFor language acquisition: find a partner who speaks the other language and wishes to learn yours, then converse with each of you using your L2, falling back to L1 only when circumlocution fails or to make corrections. (then how do you practise listening to your L2? Eavesdropping, ancillary encounters, news, movies, etc. give plenty of opportunity, but speaking requires you to make an extra effort.)
- wahnfrieden 2y agoor the reverse
- kqr 2y agoAlso possibly the most time consuming. Best and efficient with time are two different metrics.
- practicemaths 2y agoWhat is consider efficient if it yields less best results? I understand time constraints and end goals may prohibit the 'best' approach. What I do not understand is how can you say something is more 'efficient' if the yield in understanding is less than what you would get with another method. Hopefully this will clarify my thought process here: If 'Best' is to teach others and requires 10,000 hours to yield 90-99% understanding. In contrast, 'Efficient' method requires 2,500 hours to yield 30-40% understanding. However, there is diminishing returns meaning that doubling your hours to 5,000 does not return you with 60-80% understanding, rather maybe closer to 50-60% understanding. With 7,500 hours closer to 65-70% and 10,000 hours may around 75-89% understanding. Here you've spent the same amount of time but did not achieve the same level of understanding. I think you may have a dynamic 'Best' vs 'Efficient' curve and to switch between those options to optimize maximizing your level of understanding in the least amount of time.
- godelshalt 2y agoSounds great but I was expecting more evidence. They talk about this shuffling method, which interleaves material as a way to provide spacing and reintroduce material. But it appears to just be their opinion that it will help improve retention. Also what is the deal with this "hypothetical interaction between ISI and RI"? Why not do enough experiments to actually plot it out? Anyone can graph out a hypothetical interaction.
- kqr 2y agoI think Accelerated Expertise comes to the same conclusion and references the studies to back it up. It's a good book!
- abecedarius 2y agoYears ago there was a great extended comment here on HN about teaching a linear algebra course using, among other tactics, a similar spacing of the homework problems. He reported excellent results. I wish I remembered the username. Ben something?
- ExciteByte 2y agoI think it was Ben Tilly and I think his user name is btilly. I also remember that comment you're referring too.
- Jtsummers 2y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=818367 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=818367
- abecedarius 2y agoThat's the one, thank you.
- BJones12 2y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=818367 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=818367 ?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- jppope 2y agoReal question. Does this count as a published paper?
- layer8 2y agoIt was published in a scientific journal, so yes.
- david_allison 2y agoYes, with 263 citations Rohrer, D., & Pashler, H. (2007). Increasing Retention Without Increasing Study Time. Current Directions in Psychological Science, 16(4), 183-186. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-8721.2007.00500.x https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1467-8721.2007.00500.x
- moffkalast 2y ago> Because people forget much of what they learn, students could benefit from learning strategies that provide long-lasting knowledge. Yet surprisingly little is known about how long-term retention is most efficiently achieved. I've always thought that the real problem is information relevancy. People need practical uses for remembering something beyond synthetic bullshit exams. Efficient techniques are great, but nothing demotivates more than not having a reason to learn beyond being told that you have to. Nobody has to reach for flashcards, extensive notes, or advanced techniques when trying to learn something they're actually interested in, it's retained almost immediately and effortlessly. There has to be some kind of subconscious gauge of information relevancy that physically controls the level of absorption, a sort of "learning rate" if you will.
- larsrc 2y agoI disagree. Motivation will keep you reading the material, but that alone will not make you remember it that much better. When you're motivated about something you can practice, you may remember more by doing it (which also acts a spaced repetition). But good luck trying that with, say, astrophysics or macroeconomics. When motivated, you're also more likely to pick up other books on the subject, which is another form of spaced repetition.
- james-revisoai 2y agoI agree motivation to learn and maintaining interest is key, to effect the learning rate you mention. The enjoyment itself, although a crucifying word to use in discussions when teaching students considered the "best of the best", still matters and predominates over the effectiveness factor for most of the semester for students, at least. Because of just being "told to learn" it. Basically 70% of the semester most students are not studying 40 hours - they are doing 30 hours of real work, and perhaps only 15 hours effectively. And for good reason: Nothing is bridging or rewarding them in a way that interests/motivates them, for courses where the interest isn't natural. A bridge to motivate them would be ideal. In 2021 I started using GPT-3 to generate motivational "reasons to learn a concept" cards for my flashcard app, - Revision.ai - which you can read about here in the 3rd item: https://www.revision.ai/articles/20ThingsRevisionAIDoesForBetterStudying https://www.revision.ai/articles/20ThingsRevisionAIDoesForBe... - the reason we disabled them was simple: we could never quite time the cards right to help the student when they needed it. When the app is closed, they aren't motivated - they don't see them. Mid study session? Showing such cards (or AI generated examples) interrupted the flow [https://www.instagram.com/p/CVVlIuVg31W/ https://www.instagram.com/p/CVVlIuVg31W/] We have also tried recommending relevant short/mid length youtube videos for visual/"breaks" from overwhelming learning. That did not boost student success either. I guess it doesn't address that you are still being told to do it, not naturally flowing into learning. I welcome any technical or conceptual ideas you have to improve this and help increase interest amongst students. We have found that turning lecture slideshows into sets of exercises with clear visuals[https://www.instagram.com/p/C5ByftwiJ00/ https://www.instagram.com/p/C5ByftwiJ00/], breaking content up, and showing progress does motivate students to study more(and in a semi-related dissertation I wrote, possibly reduce Test Anxiety and tension). Please let me know of any ideas you have!
- WaitWaitWha 2y agoFrom the abstract (emphasis added): > Because people forget much of what they learn, students could benefit from learning strategies that provide long-lasting knowledge. What learning strategies were taught in your secondary educational years?
- tnvmadhav 2y agospaced repetition
- aflukasz 2y agoIf you are interested in similar research, take a look at https://supermemo.guru https://supermemo.guru (somewhat hidden "about" page: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/SuperMemo_Guru:About https://supermemo.guru/wiki/SuperMemo_Guru:About). Author spent quite some time on the topic and its history, including writing applications.
- light_hue_1 2y agoA lot of what's on that page is just nonsense. The page has a very clear bias toward one method and writes all sorts of unscientific drivel as a result. https://supermemo.guru/wiki/School_damages_your_brain https://supermemo.guru/wiki/School_damages_your_brain As someone who also publishes in neuroscience I can tell you this is total and utter trash.
- aflukasz 2y agoI'm not in a position to judge this author's work as a whole, as this is not my area of expertise. I know this person as an author of "super memo" algorithms for spaced repetition learning, so yes, he most likely have a bias, probably even financial stake to some degree, although not sure, I don't follow him in any way, so don't know if this ever was or still is the case. In the past, I've used some of his algorithms in particular, with quite interesting results - subjectively speaking, not in any scientific regime, And, obviously, those are just one of many. I also remembered this was his area of interest in general, so assumed his wiki to be of some interest in the context of discussed article. Thanks for your critical opinion, it will contribute to my priors about his writing.
- MichaelNolan 2y agoI enjoy browsing r/Anki from time to time, and that site is frequently mentioned there. Spaced repetition is definitely a real thing, but the rest of the SuperMemo site is a bit “crazy”. The author does have a “20 rules” for good card writing which is pretty good advice though. http://super-memory.com/articles/20rules.htm http://super-memory.com/articles/20rules.htm
- aledalgrande 2y agoWhy do researchers need to use acronyms for a 2 pager article?
- cod1r 2y agoSometimes I feel like I know nothing because information goes in one ear, stays for a bit, then just runs out the other ear. Then I have to go back and review. Repeat.
- consf 2y ago[dead]
- Modified3019 2y agoOne thing I’ve found when I spend most of a day trying to learn things, is that having a ~1.5 hour nap is pretty important. Not sure what goes on, but it feels like it turns the disconnected “fog” of information in my head into something that is a least loosely linked and can be vaguely recalled upon rather than completely forgotten. Unfortunately I kinda need to plan these sorts of days ahead, because trying to nap past 2PM is a good way to fuck my nighttime sleep.
- michaelcampbell 2y agoI'm pretty sure the current thought is that you ONLY "learn" during sleep, if you consider learning to be filtering, organizing, and throwing out vs keeping.
- mrlase 2y agoI'd highly encourage anyone interested in the contents of this article/learning about learning to read through the submitter's blog: https://www.justinmath.com/blog/ https://www.justinmath.com/blog/
- james-revisoai 2y agoI also recommend https://www.learningscientists.org/posters https://www.learningscientists.org/posters from scientists in the field, which covers additional scientifically-effective approaches that a course designer or more long term approach might take. For example, not only applying Spaced Repetition, Interleaving and Active Recall (all possible through automated spaced repetition apps based on simply input), but elements like Dual coding (related to "Varied practise") - mixing visual and other elements when learning (which requires effort to create them), and elaboration practise (like free recall). To the end of applying these - and other critical elements like focusing on the motivation of the learner and enabling them to understand what they are missing with progress & identified "blindspot" misconceptions (on their own incredibly powerful), I've been developing Revision.ai since before GPT-3, through a Psychology MSc.
- hnthrow12390 2y agoContent is good but he is part of a paid math program and some articles and submissions appear to be indirect advertising/marketing if you think about it. (but it's effective and less forceful) https://www.justinmath.com/why-is-the-edtech-industry-so-damn-soft/ https://www.justinmath.com/why-is-the-edtech-industry-so-dam...
- lupire 2y agoYes. The submitter uses spaced repetition techniques to build persistent memory of his spaces reposition math education business.
- chrisweekly 2y agoSee also the wonderful https://betterexplained.com https://betterexplained.com
- paulpauper 2y agoHigh IQ. A component of IQ is memory--working and long-term memory. There is a reason why doctors are smarter than average--you got to be smart to memorize all that stuff. I am skeptical that hacks make much of a difference. There is also a difference between recall and understanding. This is why speed reading courses are dubious because you're not really understanding things, but just recalling items in the text.
- westcort 2y agoThe time between study and testing (retention interval) is the most salient factor for students. Repeating material at intervals attenuates the forgetting curve somewhat, but not enough to generate passing scores. Cumulative exams only force students to study all material in a massed study session prior to a final exam. I say this as someone who works on education and as a lifelong learner who has tried many ways of improving retention.
- Nevermark 2y agoThis is not a critique of the (nice) study, but what seems to me the overall context that should be kept in mind, especially once we are talking about "optimizing". Optimizing "study, retention phase, test" for greatest knowledge retention at a delayed test time, is very different from optimizing for greatest value of knowledge learned. To optimize learning value, learn things that are immediately useful, you can immediately incorporate into learning something else, and ideally both. The sooner and more you use something, the greater its value AND the greater your retention will be. If you have to learn something valuable but with no short term use (how to handle a rare brain surgery complication), find a way to use it. Create an ongoing useful project that will revisit that knowledge during the "retention interval" (e.g. a concise summary of rare situations you need to handle, for you and others, that you can revisit and improve with additional and updated knowledge). So optimize "topic choice", "topic progression", and "study, (optionally) test, use, use, use", for total value of learning. "Use" is motivation, test, study review, and value realization put together.
- zeroCalories 2y agoI think a lot of topics are much less sequential the further you go. As an adult I spend most of my time repeating the fundamentals of my field, and learning a topic deeply as needed. For children it probably makes sense to cram the multiplication tables.
- Nevermark 2y agoI would think that the opportunities to immediately "use" multiplication, instead of just practice it for tests, or some future numerate citizenship, would be omnipresent. If you don't use something after you learned it, you miss out on: 1. Learning how it is actually applied 2. Discovering how the knowledge is useful for you personally, in ways you may not expect if you don't actually experience using it 3. Deeper understanding and mastery of the knowledge 4. Much much much better retention It is worth creating some immediate use for new knowledge, even the smallest possible useful or creative project, for better retention alone. > learning a topic deeply as needed That is the ultimate use-driven learning model. As for non-sequential, I agree. The more we manage our own learning, the more it is a directed graph (i.e. prerequisites translate to many follow up paths), and eventually just graphs (many ways to order topics, and alternate combinations of prerequisites for each topic, in any complex area).
- cbracketdash 2y ago[Mods: it might be helpful to tag this paper as written in 2007] It seems to me this paper is bringing to light the idea of spaced repetition for learning and this has become quite popular in the productivity/learning culture of today (e.g. Ali Abdaal). > Alternatively, mathematics textbooks could easily adopt a format that engenders spacing. I tutor middle school students in mathematics and this is definitely being implemented in their textbooks! At the end of each chapter, there a is normal chapter review practice test followed by a "Cumulative Practice" which reviews topics from the previous chapters in the book. These are especially beneficial to my students as, like the paper highlights, it promotes long-term memory of those topics. > For example, although computer-based instruction typically provides extensive retrieval practice and rapid feedback, it offers a currently unexploited opportunity to schedule study sessions in ways that optimize long-term retention. There is an immensely popular software called Anki which implements exactly this "spaced repetition"-type protocol.
- __float 2y agoAnki is very much... an expert's tool? I think there's quite a lot of opportunity (not necessarily monetarily :)) for SRS software with a good UX. Anki's data model is rather strange, which partly relates to its flexibility but has some unexpected downsides and trap-doors. I would love a slightly more opinionated SRS tool! (Maybe with a bit more UI polish, rather than rewriting the backend in Rust)
- davisoneee 2y agoI don't see how anki is an experts tool...unless you want it to be. You can simply dump everything into a single collection, use basic 'front' and 'back' cards...and review. Yes, it may not be 'optimal' depending on how you mark cards, but for most people, it's good enough. Better than nothing, and probably an improvement as an addition to whatever they are currently doing. If you want expert features, you can. You can drill, tag, organise, create different templates....but none of that is really necessary, or particulary pushed on you as something you should or have to use.
- easton 2y ago
- ordu 2y agoI'd guess, that overlearning is so widespread not because it is beneficial for an individual, but as a way for a teacher to deal with a lot of students at once. To measure just the right amount of learning the teacher needs to work with each student individually, and give exercises for them based on a quality of their newly formed knowledge. But the system is mostly tuned for mass-education to amplify the impact of a teacher's work.