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> If you see a college student or fresh grad using MongoDB stop them. They need help. They have been led astray. I like this sentence way more than I should.

cryptoz 2y ago
I don’t. How are new grads supposed to learn the ups and downs of different choices they make? Just being told they’re led astray in a blog post isn’t gonna work - it’ll backfire. I used node as a new grad for things it wasn’t meant for and that’s how I learned what it is good at and what it isn’t.
- mewpmewp2 2y ago
  Out of curiousity what were the things you shouldn't have used node for?
  - chrisldgk 2y ago
    I‘d also like to know. I have yet to run into anything Node can’t handle
- vbezhenar 2y ago
  It's OK to use anything in personal or throw-away projects. But if your choices might cause big losses, it's better to avoid experimental technologies. "Nobody was fired for choosing IBM" is a known meme, but it's not just meme, it's actually solid advice (not specifically about IBM).
  - sdoering 2y ago
    You are basically referring to the "Boring Technology Club" [1] by @mcfunley. [1]: https://boringtechnology.club/ https://boringtechnology.club/
re-thc 2y ago
> They have been led astray. They haven't though. What's wrong with using a tool even if it might be bad? Especially as a fresh user. It's how we learn. From both good and bad experiences. > They need help. Sadly it's not the fresh grad, but the "experienced" that only keep their old experiences that need help. Is this comment from 2010? MongoDB has improved. Maybe not to the point of being the best but definitely not unusable.
- roenxi 2y ago
  > Especially as a fresh user. It's how we learn. From both good and bad experiences. I'd do that, but a superior strategy is letting other people make mistakes and then learning from them. It is best to always be making choices that seem like they could be optimal, with very rare exceptions.
  - re-thc 2y ago
    > but a superior strategy is letting other people make mistakes and then learning from them If this was a superior strategy that was so obvious no 1 would be making mistakes so how does this work? Not everything is strictly better. And by that logic... >> the superior strategy is letting other people comment (and make mistakes) and then learn from them i.e. don't read the post until years later to ensure you have all the mistakes and learnings. Sorry, this thread is still live.
    - duckmysick 2y ago
      > If this was a superior strategy that was so obvious no 1 would be making mistakes so how does this work? Either people aren't aware of an optimal strategy (if one exists) or they ignore it for various reason. The latter is surprisingly common. People know they should exercise, get enough sleep, eat healthy, stay hydrated, tackle high priority tasks instead of procrastinating, etc. - and yet they still aren't doing those things (or as much as they should). Knowing something is not enough.
      - re-thc 2y ago
arpinum 2y ago
This sentence has no substance. It gives the reader nothing to understand why MongoDB has both happy customers some who have been disappointed.
- Rastonbury 2y ago
  The explanation is in the paragraph before it
  - arpinum 2y ago
    except its factually incorrect when applied to Mongo[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41273563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41273563
    - heavenlyblue 2y ago
      You can also shard with postgres, how is that a USP of Mongo?
      - arpinum 2y ago
        I didn't say it is a usp for mongo. Only saying that there is a lack of substance behind the mongo criticism in the article.
RicoElectrico 2y ago
Exactly, SSPL is such a trojan horse, and God knows how they will change the license in the future
- cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
  That’s not remotely the point.
- m11a 2y ago
  Maybe it's just me, but I think it's purely rational? A lot of these OSS projects provided a commercial offering in the form of SaaS. Yet AWS/GCP/Azure can just take the OSS project, not contribute anything, and reap all the profit. AFAICS, these licenses are only intended to defend against the cloud providers, not against companies just using the product commercially and internally.
  - JetSpiegel 2y ago
    Amazon, Google, and Microsoft can do anything, snuffing out some mid company is the least of their crimes. > not contribute anything, and reap all the profit Yeah, it's called capitalism. What's their stance on Lina Khan breaking up the monopolies? Have they written letters criticising Reid Hoffman for pressuring Kamala?
vvillena 2y ago
Fully agree. At that level, the justification for using MongoDB usually boils down to not wanting to deal with table schemas or SQL. In both cases, there are better alternatives.
- formerly_proven 2y ago
  I’ve heard stuff like this from supposedly senior people - if we use mongo we can just store anything, we don’t need to think about a schema (also you can only store short strings in an SQL database)
  - Vosporos 2y ago
    Good Lord the level of incompetence is terrifying
    - stogot 2y ago
      Most people dontgain competence until they learn from their mistakes
  - croes 2y ago
    Related >Good programmers worry about data structures and their relationships https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41268803 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41268803
  - j45 2y ago
    If we don’t think about it now we’ll really have to think about it way more later.
    - markoman 2y ago
      Hence, the birth of the dreaded 'technical debt'.
  - hyper_cube 2y ago
    But typically, if you do spend some time to think about schema, and relationships, you only have to spend a small amount of time, and map that into the appropriate place, and then usually you don't have to mess with it again. It's worth the investment.
JohnBooty 2y ago
Me too. I'll give you one counter-argument, though: maybe it's hard to appreciate all of the problems a traditional SQL RDBMS solves until you try and solve them without an RDBMS... and crash and burn badly. But, if they're actually building a real product with real funding money and they only know MongoDB... yeah, it's intervention time.
- asah 2y ago
  I would not wish this on anybody.

cryptoz 2y ago

I don’t. How are new grads supposed to learn the ups and downs of different choices they make? Just being told they’re led astray in a blog post isn’t gonna work - it’ll backfire. I used node as a new grad for things it wasn’t meant for and that’s how I learned what it is good at and what it isn’t.

mewpmewp2 2y ago
Out of curiousity what were the things you shouldn't have used node for?
- chrisldgk 2y ago
  I‘d also like to know. I have yet to run into anything Node can’t handle
vbezhenar 2y ago
It's OK to use anything in personal or throw-away projects. But if your choices might cause big losses, it's better to avoid experimental technologies. "Nobody was fired for choosing IBM" is a known meme, but it's not just meme, it's actually solid advice (not specifically about IBM).
- sdoering 2y ago
  You are basically referring to the "Boring Technology Club" [1] by @mcfunley. [1]: https://boringtechnology.club/ https://boringtechnology.club/

re-thc 2y ago

> They have been led astray. They haven't though. What's wrong with using a tool even if it might be bad? Especially as a fresh user. It's how we learn. From both good and bad experiences. > They need help. Sadly it's not the fresh grad, but the "experienced" that only keep their old experiences that need help. Is this comment from 2010? MongoDB has improved. Maybe not to the point of being the best but definitely not unusable.

roenxi 2y ago
> Especially as a fresh user. It's how we learn. From both good and bad experiences. I'd do that, but a superior strategy is letting other people make mistakes and then learning from them. It is best to always be making choices that seem like they could be optimal, with very rare exceptions.
- re-thc 2y ago
  > but a superior strategy is letting other people make mistakes and then learning from them If this was a superior strategy that was so obvious no 1 would be making mistakes so how does this work? Not everything is strictly better. And by that logic... >> the superior strategy is letting other people comment (and make mistakes) and then learn from them i.e. don't read the post until years later to ensure you have all the mistakes and learnings. Sorry, this thread is still live.
  - duckmysick 2y ago
    > If this was a superior strategy that was so obvious no 1 would be making mistakes so how does this work? Either people aren't aware of an optimal strategy (if one exists) or they ignore it for various reason. The latter is surprisingly common. People know they should exercise, get enough sleep, eat healthy, stay hydrated, tackle high priority tasks instead of procrastinating, etc. - and yet they still aren't doing those things (or as much as they should). Knowing something is not enough.
    - re-thc 2y ago

arpinum 2y ago

This sentence has no substance. It gives the reader nothing to understand why MongoDB has both happy customers some who have been disappointed.

Rastonbury 2y ago
The explanation is in the paragraph before it
- arpinum 2y ago
  except its factually incorrect when applied to Mongo[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41273563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41273563
  - heavenlyblue 2y ago
    You can also shard with postgres, how is that a USP of Mongo?
    - arpinum 2y ago
      I didn't say it is a usp for mongo. Only saying that there is a lack of substance behind the mongo criticism in the article.

RicoElectrico 2y ago

Exactly, SSPL is such a trojan horse, and God knows how they will change the license in the future

cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
That’s not remotely the point.
m11a 2y ago
Maybe it's just me, but I think it's purely rational? A lot of these OSS projects provided a commercial offering in the form of SaaS. Yet AWS/GCP/Azure can just take the OSS project, not contribute anything, and reap all the profit. AFAICS, these licenses are only intended to defend against the cloud providers, not against companies just using the product commercially and internally.
- JetSpiegel 2y ago
  Amazon, Google, and Microsoft can do anything, snuffing out some mid company is the least of their crimes. > not contribute anything, and reap all the profit Yeah, it's called capitalism. What's their stance on Lina Khan breaking up the monopolies? Have they written letters criticising Reid Hoffman for pressuring Kamala?

vvillena 2y ago

Fully agree. At that level, the justification for using MongoDB usually boils down to not wanting to deal with table schemas or SQL. In both cases, there are better alternatives.

formerly_proven 2y ago
I’ve heard stuff like this from supposedly senior people - if we use mongo we can just store anything, we don’t need to think about a schema (also you can only store short strings in an SQL database)
- Vosporos 2y ago
  Good Lord the level of incompetence is terrifying
  - stogot 2y ago
    Most people dontgain competence until they learn from their mistakes
- croes 2y ago
  Related >Good programmers worry about data structures and their relationships https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41268803 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41268803
- j45 2y ago
  If we don’t think about it now we’ll really have to think about it way more later.
  - markoman 2y ago
    Hence, the birth of the dreaded 'technical debt'.
- hyper_cube 2y ago
  But typically, if you do spend some time to think about schema, and relationships, you only have to spend a small amount of time, and map that into the appropriate place, and then usually you don't have to mess with it again. It's worth the investment.

JohnBooty 2y ago

Me too. I'll give you one counter-argument, though: maybe it's hard to appreciate all of the problems a traditional SQL RDBMS solves until you try and solve them without an RDBMS... and crash and burn badly. But, if they're actually building a real product with real funding money and they only know MongoDB... yeah, it's intervention time.

asah 2y ago
I would not wish this on anybody.