4 ms·

This kind of thing is why I wish Apple would go back to building Airport routers and only consider “pure” dumb APs as possible replacements.

by rcarmo 2y ago

hagbard_c 2y ago
You don't need Apple to achieve wireless freedom, all you need is a few devices which can run OpenWRT. Use one of of them as router, the others as APs and you're set. The router can also be a virtual one, running in a container or VM on the server-under-the-stairs. The APs can be anything which you have laying around or managed to scrounge somewhere. This is what I do home on the range - farm really - where I have several APs spread around the area, connected together using Cat5 using a number of VLANs for different wireless networks: one for the private network, a guest network, an IoT network, an OPS network, a surveillance cam network and a low-speed open network called 'snigelnät' (Swedish for 'slug net'). The APs don't do routing, the virtual router of course does not do WiFi. Some of the APs are also connected to local POE switches for cameras. The whole setup has been mostly maintenance free since I got it up and running some 4 years ago, it offers way more functionality and flexibility than anything offered by commercial entities like Apple and it was cheap to build.
- rcarmo 2y ago
  I contributed patches to OpenWRT since the WRT54g days and have a couple of travel routers that I upgraded myself. But the quality of decent, home grade compatible equipment is pretty dismal, so if you can tell me what boxes you used I'd be curious. However, I do not want to have to support, flash or manually patch my home Wi-Fi, which currently consists of no less than 5 Airport Extreme base stations connected via Cat 5. But I also don't want it to send data to the cloud or rely on proprietary apps for management (I tolerate Apple's Airport Utlity because it has worked flawlessly for decades).
  - hagbard_c 2y ago
    In the current setup I'm using 3 * 'Xiaomi Mi Router 4A Gigabit Edition' (xiaomi,mi-router-4a-gigabit, ramips/mt7621) as 'main access points' which have thus far worked well. I bought these new specifically for this purpose and never allowed them access to the 'net before flashing OpenWRT. I disable routing/firewall/dhcp on these devices, they are pure access points. I'm also using a number of repurposed devices from different manufacturers - Belkin, Technicolor, Netgear, Asus, D-Link and probably some others I forgot about - for local access points and as local switches, again with routing (etc.) disabled. There are 6 different wireless networks (LAN, guest, ipcam, IoT, OPS and the open but slow 'snigelnät') which are trunked to the APs over VLANs. I'm running a dual-stack network (IPv4/v6) using DHCPv6 for deterministic IPv6 addresses on hosts, all that is handled by the virtual router running in a container on Proxmox on the server-under-the-stairs. This is also where I run Wireguard (VPN) and adblock. Maximum wireless speed varies depending on which AP you're connected to, in practice up to about 550 Mbps when using the Xiaomi 4A APs (advertised as AC1200). Range is sufficient for me to have a WiFi connection when I'm in the middle of a 3.5 hectare field on the opposite side of the road, about 150 m and a number of walls plus some trees separated from the nearest AP.
    - rcarmo 2y ago
      Thanks! I actually like most of the Xiaomi hardware I’ve come across, just never used that model. Have added it to my list of prospective replacements (will be a year or so before I actually worry about doing the upgrade)
      - hagbard_c 2y ago
        Make sure the model they ship is supported before you buy, there seem to be several versions of this device - or devices with very similar names sold as '4A Gigabit Router' - which are not necessarily supported by OpenWRT. I was actually surprised to see this device still being sold on Aliexpress, by now it is a bit dated but it certainly works well as an AP. It is quite cheap, around €30.
fmajid 2y ago
Apple is an advertising company too. They conveniently exempt themselves from the tracking restrictions they put on their competitors, like blocking access to device identifiers. You would be a fool to trust them with your privacy.
- rcarmo 2y ago
  I think you're being overly paranoid. Apple is not an advertising company. They are a hardware company first and foremost, with a content and services business that goes to extreme lengths to ensure privacy. The Apple routers and access points did zero traffic inspection (other than IGMP) and had absolutely no tracking features. Please do not bring biased, toxic reasoning into the conversation.
  - foogazi 2y ago
    > I think you're being overly paranoid. No shortage of paranoid comments here
    - whackyMax 2y ago
      I think it’s okay to be paranoid in this space. Most of us are playing the role of consumers here. Strictly identifying the data collected, and identifying Apple’s interest/ disinterest in using that data for its own shareholder’s profit is definitely worth looking at from a consumers pov.
  - fmajid 2y ago
    Their hardware business is flatlining and they are relying on “services” for growth. Guess what “services” is? Primarily the 30% tax on transactions, but also their fast-growing advertising business. As for data collection, iOS is only marginally better than Android, and Apple exempts itself from the IDFA controls it imposes on 3rd-party apps. https://www.tomsguide.com/news/android-ios-data-collection https://www.tomsguide.com/news/android-ios-data-collection
- firesteelrain 2y ago
  Apple's primary business model revolves around selling hardware, software, and services rather than advertising. Unlike companies such as Google and Facebook, which generate the majority of their revenue from targeted advertising, Apple earns most of its revenue from the sale of iPhones, Macs, iPads, and various services like iCloud and Apple Music. This fundamental difference in business models shapes their approach to user data and privacy. Apple has positioned itself as a company that prioritizes user privacy. Over the years, Apple has implemented numerous privacy features, such as App Tracking Transparency (ATT), which requires apps to obtain user permission before tracking their activity across other apps and websites. Apple's privacy policies are often stricter than those of other tech companies, reflecting their commitment to protecting user data. The claim that Apple exempts itself from tracking restrictions is misleading. While Apple does have access to certain data from its own ecosystem, such as app usage and iCloud data, it does not sell this data to third parties or use it for targeted advertising in the same way that companies like Google do. Apple's advertising business is limited to its own App Store, News, and Stocks apps, and the data used for ad targeting within these apps is based on user interactions within Apple’s ecosystem, with strict limits on data sharing. Apple provides users with clear choices and transparency about how their data is used. With features like App Tracking Transparency, Privacy Labels, and the ability to limit ad tracking, Apple gives users more control over their data than most other tech companies. Users can choose to opt-out of personalized ads and tracking, which is a level of control not universally offered by other major tech firms. Apple’s privacy practices are subject to regulatory oversight in various jurisdictions. Any attempt to exempt itself from its own privacy rules would likely face legal challenges and public scrutiny, further deterring Apple from engaging in practices that would undermine user trust.

This kind of thing is why I wish Apple would go back to building Airport routers and only consider “pure” dumb APs as possible replacements.

by rcarmo 2y ago

This kind of thing is why I wish Apple would go back to building Airport routers and only consider “pure” dumb APs as possible replacements.

hagbard_c 2y ago

You don't need Apple to achieve wireless freedom, all you need is a few devices which can run OpenWRT. Use one of of them as router, the others as APs and you're set. The router can also be a virtual one, running in a container or VM on the server-under-the-stairs. The APs can be anything which you have laying around or managed to scrounge somewhere. This is what I do home on the range - farm really - where I have several APs spread around the area, connected together using Cat5 using a number of VLANs for different wireless networks: one for the private network, a guest network, an IoT network, an OPS network, a surveillance cam network and a low-speed open network called 'snigelnät' (Swedish for 'slug net'). The APs don't do routing, the virtual router of course does not do WiFi. Some of the APs are also connected to local POE switches for cameras. The whole setup has been mostly maintenance free since I got it up and running some 4 years ago, it offers way more functionality and flexibility than anything offered by commercial entities like Apple and it was cheap to build.

rcarmo 2y ago
I contributed patches to OpenWRT since the WRT54g days and have a couple of travel routers that I upgraded myself. But the quality of decent, home grade compatible equipment is pretty dismal, so if you can tell me what boxes you used I'd be curious. However, I do not want to have to support, flash or manually patch my home Wi-Fi, which currently consists of no less than 5 Airport Extreme base stations connected via Cat 5. But I also don't want it to send data to the cloud or rely on proprietary apps for management (I tolerate Apple's Airport Utlity because it has worked flawlessly for decades).
- hagbard_c 2y ago
  In the current setup I'm using 3 * 'Xiaomi Mi Router 4A Gigabit Edition' (xiaomi,mi-router-4a-gigabit, ramips/mt7621) as 'main access points' which have thus far worked well. I bought these new specifically for this purpose and never allowed them access to the 'net before flashing OpenWRT. I disable routing/firewall/dhcp on these devices, they are pure access points. I'm also using a number of repurposed devices from different manufacturers - Belkin, Technicolor, Netgear, Asus, D-Link and probably some others I forgot about - for local access points and as local switches, again with routing (etc.) disabled. There are 6 different wireless networks (LAN, guest, ipcam, IoT, OPS and the open but slow 'snigelnät') which are trunked to the APs over VLANs. I'm running a dual-stack network (IPv4/v6) using DHCPv6 for deterministic IPv6 addresses on hosts, all that is handled by the virtual router running in a container on Proxmox on the server-under-the-stairs. This is also where I run Wireguard (VPN) and adblock. Maximum wireless speed varies depending on which AP you're connected to, in practice up to about 550 Mbps when using the Xiaomi 4A APs (advertised as AC1200). Range is sufficient for me to have a WiFi connection when I'm in the middle of a 3.5 hectare field on the opposite side of the road, about 150 m and a number of walls plus some trees separated from the nearest AP.
  - rcarmo 2y ago
    Thanks! I actually like most of the Xiaomi hardware I’ve come across, just never used that model. Have added it to my list of prospective replacements (will be a year or so before I actually worry about doing the upgrade)
    - hagbard_c 2y ago
      Make sure the model they ship is supported before you buy, there seem to be several versions of this device - or devices with very similar names sold as '4A Gigabit Router' - which are not necessarily supported by OpenWRT. I was actually surprised to see this device still being sold on Aliexpress, by now it is a bit dated but it certainly works well as an AP. It is quite cheap, around €30.

fmajid 2y ago

Apple is an advertising company too. They conveniently exempt themselves from the tracking restrictions they put on their competitors, like blocking access to device identifiers. You would be a fool to trust them with your privacy.

rcarmo 2y ago
I think you're being overly paranoid. Apple is not an advertising company. They are a hardware company first and foremost, with a content and services business that goes to extreme lengths to ensure privacy. The Apple routers and access points did zero traffic inspection (other than IGMP) and had absolutely no tracking features. Please do not bring biased, toxic reasoning into the conversation.
- foogazi 2y ago
  > I think you're being overly paranoid. No shortage of paranoid comments here
  - whackyMax 2y ago
    I think it’s okay to be paranoid in this space. Most of us are playing the role of consumers here. Strictly identifying the data collected, and identifying Apple’s interest/ disinterest in using that data for its own shareholder’s profit is definitely worth looking at from a consumers pov.
- fmajid 2y ago
  Their hardware business is flatlining and they are relying on “services” for growth. Guess what “services” is? Primarily the 30% tax on transactions, but also their fast-growing advertising business. As for data collection, iOS is only marginally better than Android, and Apple exempts itself from the IDFA controls it imposes on 3rd-party apps. https://www.tomsguide.com/news/android-ios-data-collection https://www.tomsguide.com/news/android-ios-data-collection
firesteelrain 2y ago
Apple's primary business model revolves around selling hardware, software, and services rather than advertising. Unlike companies such as Google and Facebook, which generate the majority of their revenue from targeted advertising, Apple earns most of its revenue from the sale of iPhones, Macs, iPads, and various services like iCloud and Apple Music. This fundamental difference in business models shapes their approach to user data and privacy. Apple has positioned itself as a company that prioritizes user privacy. Over the years, Apple has implemented numerous privacy features, such as App Tracking Transparency (ATT), which requires apps to obtain user permission before tracking their activity across other apps and websites. Apple's privacy policies are often stricter than those of other tech companies, reflecting their commitment to protecting user data. The claim that Apple exempts itself from tracking restrictions is misleading. While Apple does have access to certain data from its own ecosystem, such as app usage and iCloud data, it does not sell this data to third parties or use it for targeted advertising in the same way that companies like Google do. Apple's advertising business is limited to its own App Store, News, and Stocks apps, and the data used for ad targeting within these apps is based on user interactions within Apple’s ecosystem, with strict limits on data sharing. Apple provides users with clear choices and transparency about how their data is used. With features like App Tracking Transparency, Privacy Labels, and the ability to limit ad tracking, Apple gives users more control over their data than most other tech companies. Users can choose to opt-out of personalized ads and tracking, which is a level of control not universally offered by other major tech firms. Apple’s privacy practices are subject to regulatory oversight in various jurisdictions. Any attempt to exempt itself from its own privacy rules would likely face legal challenges and public scrutiny, further deterring Apple from engaging in practices that would undermine user trust.