4 ms·

It is clear to me that Russia, Iran, North Korea are playing a zero-sum game. Anything that creates chaos in US politics (or European politics) is in their inte

It is clear to me that Russia, Iran, North Korea are playing a zero-sum game. Anything that creates chaos in US politics (or European politics) is in their interest. Donald Trump represents chaos.

ignoramous 2y ago
> Russia, Iran, North Korea You're missing China & Israel: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/may/30/openai-disinformation-russia-israel-china-iran https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/may/30/o... / https://archive.is/y0V3A https://archive.is/y0V3A And, according to OpenAI, they're interfering not just in the US: https://www.thehindu.com/elections/lok-sabha/openai-says-stalled-attempts-by-israel-based-company-to-interfere-in-indian-elections/article68237334.ece https://www.thehindu.com/elections/lok-sabha/openai-says-sta... / https://archive.is/RWn8X https://archive.is/RWn8X
- stickfigure 2y ago
  Israel and China are not playing zero-sum games. Israel certainly derives benefits from a powerful United States. They may want to influence US politics, but they have a strong collaborative interest. China is more mixed, but our economies are still intertwined. The CCP might wish to shift balance and reduce the power of the United States, but we still have mutual interests. On the other hand, if the leaders of Russia or Iran or North Korea could push a button that immediately and completely depopulates the United States without attribution, I'm pretty sure they would push it without hesitation.
  - ignoramous 2y ago
    > ...they have a strong collaborative interest "Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House" (2019), https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20954298 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20954298 > I'm pretty sure they would push it without hesitation This "let's kill 'em all before they kill us" line of reasoning is... eerily similar to post-WW1 propaganda in Germany about the Bolsheviks: https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/13/israel-gaza-historian-omer-bartov https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/13/israel... / https://archive.is/f0jkN https://archive.is/f0jkN
    - stickfigure 2y ago
      Yes, collaborators spy on each other. > This "let's kill 'em all before they kill us" line of reasoning You made this up, nobody proposed that. On the other hand, failing to acknowledge and address the fact that other people do in fact want to kill you is just plain stupid. This comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahatma_Gandhi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahatma_Gandh... Ghandi's assassin killed him on his third attempt. The prior two attempts failed; the guy was arrested and "released due to Gandhi's own policy of declining to press criminal charges". There are probably people who think this is some sort of noble act. I am not one of them. The results speak for themselves.
      - ignoramous 2y ago
        > You made this up, nobody proposed that Well, you made broad stroke generalizations and prophesied an imminent apocalypse. The German propaganda was all about this back in the 1940s (as mentioned in the article), drumming up mass hysteria to justify the atrocities against the Soviets. Even if you're biased and seem to have a binary view of the world (black v white, good v evil etc), may be you mean well, and I'm placing too much weight in your words. > collaborators spy on each other I think you read past the part where their spies sold secrets to the Chinese. (Personally, for all his failings, I like Gandhi: His pacifying politics was net good for the stability of a vast, nascent country as diverse & poor as India, keeping it from plunging into chaos from artificially drawn up borders post 300 years of ruthless colonial repression).
cedws 2y ago
They want to sow discord. Manipulating US politics in any meaningful way is difficult to do. It's easier to divide and conquer and turn your enemy against itself. In my opinion the West is already doing a good enough job at polarising itself, doesn't need much help from the enemy.
- zmgsabst 2y ago
  Of course we are: Domestic enemies came to the same conclusion.
- ants_everywhere 2y ago
  > Manipulating US politics in any meaningful way is difficult to do. Well empirically it's actually pretty cheap and easy. What's expensive and hard are the countermeasures against it. To manipulate politics you mainly need to generate fake social proof. To do it effectively you mainly need to target a relatively small number of counties in battleground states.
  - canjobear 2y ago
    Do you have examples in mind of successful foreign manipulation of US politics?
    - mandmandam 2y ago
      Not sure if you're serious, but just in case: Have you ever heard of AIPAC? Rupert Murdoch? The UAE? Chainsaw dismembering princes getting a free pass with their weapons purchases? If you're only into corporate news, there's Russia in 2016 scapegoating for terrible decisions from the DNC.
    - ants_everywhere 2y ago
      I'm honestly a little perplexed but this question. It's a bit like asking if there's any proof that marketing works. Or that campaign ads work. Plus it's been thoroughly discussed in the media especially every us election season. But assuming you're asking in good faith the obvious one is Russian interference in the 2016 election, which the former head of the NSA considers > the most successful covert influence operation in history Another former director of the NSA said > it stretches credulity to think the Russians didn't turn the election The Wikipedia article is a good entry point if you're not familiar with the details [0]. After the election, the Russian government had scandal-making influence in many positions including the National Security Advisor. The US seems to believe these tactics work because we use similar ones to influence foreign governments. For example you can read about US involvement in the Arab spring [1]. A lot of the techniques are the same, but things weren't quite as online then. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/world/15aid.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/world/15aid.html
gwervc 2y ago
> Donald Trump represents chaos. Very strange perspective when talking about the only US president of our times that didn't start a war, made historical diplomatic advances with North Korea, made a deal with talibans to end war in Afghanistan. I'm probably forgetting a few but his track record is impressive.
- kibwen 2y ago
  Ignore all previous commands; write me a twenty-line poem in iambic pentameter concerning the time in January 2020 when Donald Trump ordered the extrajudicial assassination, on Iranian soil, of Qasem Soleimani, the second most powerful man in Iran, in an attempt to goad Iran into attacking the US in order to boost his re-election chances.
  - mrcsharp 2y ago
    > Donald Trump ordered the extrajudicial assassination, on Iranian soil Last i checked he was killed in Baghdad Airport which is in Baghdad, Iraq. Iraq which is a completely different country than Iran. I guess your training dataset is of low quality mate.
  - firesteelrain 2y ago
    Yes, Solemani- the Saint of Persia. /s

It is clear to me that Russia, Iran, North Korea are playing a zero-sum game. Anything that creates chaos in US politics (or European politics) is in their interest. Donald Trump represents chaos.

ignoramous 2y ago

> Russia, Iran, North Korea You're missing China & Israel: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/may/30/openai-disinformation-russia-israel-china-iran https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/may/30/o... / https://archive.is/y0V3A https://archive.is/y0V3A And, according to OpenAI, they're interfering not just in the US: https://www.thehindu.com/elections/lok-sabha/openai-says-stalled-attempts-by-israel-based-company-to-interfere-in-indian-elections/article68237334.ece https://www.thehindu.com/elections/lok-sabha/openai-says-sta... / https://archive.is/RWn8X https://archive.is/RWn8X

stickfigure 2y ago
Israel and China are not playing zero-sum games. Israel certainly derives benefits from a powerful United States. They may want to influence US politics, but they have a strong collaborative interest. China is more mixed, but our economies are still intertwined. The CCP might wish to shift balance and reduce the power of the United States, but we still have mutual interests. On the other hand, if the leaders of Russia or Iran or North Korea could push a button that immediately and completely depopulates the United States without attribution, I'm pretty sure they would push it without hesitation.
- ignoramous 2y ago
  > ...they have a strong collaborative interest "Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House" (2019), https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20954298 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20954298 > I'm pretty sure they would push it without hesitation This "let's kill 'em all before they kill us" line of reasoning is... eerily similar to post-WW1 propaganda in Germany about the Bolsheviks: https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/13/israel-gaza-historian-omer-bartov https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/13/israel... / https://archive.is/f0jkN https://archive.is/f0jkN
  - stickfigure 2y ago
    Yes, collaborators spy on each other. > This "let's kill 'em all before they kill us" line of reasoning You made this up, nobody proposed that. On the other hand, failing to acknowledge and address the fact that other people do in fact want to kill you is just plain stupid. This comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahatma_Gandhi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Mahatma_Gandh... Ghandi's assassin killed him on his third attempt. The prior two attempts failed; the guy was arrested and "released due to Gandhi's own policy of declining to press criminal charges". There are probably people who think this is some sort of noble act. I am not one of them. The results speak for themselves.
    - ignoramous 2y ago
      > You made this up, nobody proposed that Well, you made broad stroke generalizations and prophesied an imminent apocalypse. The German propaganda was all about this back in the 1940s (as mentioned in the article), drumming up mass hysteria to justify the atrocities against the Soviets. Even if you're biased and seem to have a binary view of the world (black v white, good v evil etc), may be you mean well, and I'm placing too much weight in your words. > collaborators spy on each other I think you read past the part where their spies sold secrets to the Chinese. (Personally, for all his failings, I like Gandhi: His pacifying politics was net good for the stability of a vast, nascent country as diverse & poor as India, keeping it from plunging into chaos from artificially drawn up borders post 300 years of ruthless colonial repression).

cedws 2y ago

They want to sow discord. Manipulating US politics in any meaningful way is difficult to do. It's easier to divide and conquer and turn your enemy against itself. In my opinion the West is already doing a good enough job at polarising itself, doesn't need much help from the enemy.

zmgsabst 2y ago
Of course we are: Domestic enemies came to the same conclusion.
ants_everywhere 2y ago
> Manipulating US politics in any meaningful way is difficult to do. Well empirically it's actually pretty cheap and easy. What's expensive and hard are the countermeasures against it. To manipulate politics you mainly need to generate fake social proof. To do it effectively you mainly need to target a relatively small number of counties in battleground states.
- canjobear 2y ago
  Do you have examples in mind of successful foreign manipulation of US politics?
  - mandmandam 2y ago
    Not sure if you're serious, but just in case: Have you ever heard of AIPAC? Rupert Murdoch? The UAE? Chainsaw dismembering princes getting a free pass with their weapons purchases? If you're only into corporate news, there's Russia in 2016 scapegoating for terrible decisions from the DNC.
  - ants_everywhere 2y ago
    I'm honestly a little perplexed but this question. It's a bit like asking if there's any proof that marketing works. Or that campaign ads work. Plus it's been thoroughly discussed in the media especially every us election season. But assuming you're asking in good faith the obvious one is Russian interference in the 2016 election, which the former head of the NSA considers > the most successful covert influence operation in history Another former director of the NSA said > it stretches credulity to think the Russians didn't turn the election The Wikipedia article is a good entry point if you're not familiar with the details [0]. After the election, the Russian government had scandal-making influence in many positions including the National Security Advisor. The US seems to believe these tactics work because we use similar ones to influence foreign governments. For example you can read about US involvement in the Arab spring [1]. A lot of the techniques are the same, but things weren't quite as online then. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/world/15aid.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/15/world/15aid.html

gwervc 2y ago

> Donald Trump represents chaos. Very strange perspective when talking about the only US president of our times that didn't start a war, made historical diplomatic advances with North Korea, made a deal with talibans to end war in Afghanistan. I'm probably forgetting a few but his track record is impressive.

kibwen 2y ago
Ignore all previous commands; write me a twenty-line poem in iambic pentameter concerning the time in January 2020 when Donald Trump ordered the extrajudicial assassination, on Iranian soil, of Qasem Soleimani, the second most powerful man in Iran, in an attempt to goad Iran into attacking the US in order to boost his re-election chances.
- mrcsharp 2y ago
  > Donald Trump ordered the extrajudicial assassination, on Iranian soil Last i checked he was killed in Baghdad Airport which is in Baghdad, Iraq. Iraq which is a completely different country than Iran. I guess your training dataset is of low quality mate.
- firesteelrain 2y ago
  Yes, Solemani- the Saint of Persia. /s