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I don't think that asking for something causes you to have recorded it in the past! You don't think it's possible to read the file when the game loads, see a n

I don't think that asking for something causes you to have recorded it in the past! You don't think it's possible to read the file when the game loads, see a negative number, and save previous values? in which we learn that we should make Marisa's laser not freeze the game This seems to be a common theme with coroutines, the idea that it's solving a problem that can't be solved any other way (except for how it's been solved in the ten thousand other games over the last 40 years). I have done this stuff in lua, but in any real game I would probably want the game state to be serializable. http://lua-users.org/wiki/TableSerialization http://lua-users.org/wiki/TableSerialization

anonymoushn 2y ago
> You don't think it's possible to read the file when the game loads, see a negative number, and save previous values? That's why we were going to evaluate the locations that we could look into the past for on frames when we weren't looking for them. You decided it wasn't necessary to do so. Can you link some of the ten thousand bullet hell games that are written in your preferred style? It seems like so far we have a lot of games written in one style that include certain kinds of complex behaviors and a lot of games written in another style that do not include these. So I am mostly comparing all of the output of ABA Games, ZUN, and almost every Touhou fan shmup on the one side to nothing on the other, rather than saying "wow, it's so impressive that people were able to make the amazing bullet patterns in Stephen's Sausage Roll with just switch statements!"
- CyberDildonics 2y ago
  That's why we were going to evaluate the locations that we could look into the past for on frames when we weren't looking for them. You decided it wasn't necessary to do so. ...What? Can you link some of the ten thousand bullet hell games that are written in your preferred style? Games without coroutines? That's almost every game ever made. You realize most of these types of games originated in the 80s and 90s and were made in assembly right?
  - anonymoushn 2y ago
    > ...What? Here's where you dismissively suggested that evaluating and storing locations that might be asked for in the future was unnecessary: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41266544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41266544 > Games without coroutines? That's almost every game ever made. Bullet hell games? None? Honestly it took several tries for me to come up with a game that lacks an internal language and VM (e.g. StarCraft and WoW have at least 1 and at least 2 respectively). Stephen's Sausage Roll seems like a potentially winning bet only because I don't think you can make all of it in PuzzleScript, which is what the author normally uses. > You realize most of these types of games originated in the 80s and 90s and were made in assembly right? There weren't any of these games prior to Batsugun in 1993. According to the people who have reverse engineered the games, the more well known DoDonPachi DaiOuJou in 2002 used the same level planner that Toaplan used for Batsugun. Assembly obviously has coroutines, but we know that these games did not use a coroutine implementation for their bullet patterns. I obviously don't work at CAVE and can't just ask the devs what they were thinking, but if you play these games on the original hardware, even though every bullet has no behaviors attached the game will start to run slow when there are a lot of bullets on screen (and the game seems to be tuned around this fact). So I expect that even if the developers wanted to make the sorts of things we have in modern games, they would run too slowly to be practical. To be fair, modern games that use danmakufu or ZUN's ECL or BulletML or Firedancer or Lua would probably have less distinction between "enemies" and "bullets" and the "enemies" in these games often do have some behavior attached. In the case of DoDonPachi DaiOuJou, each enemy that spawns uses one of a small fixed table of movement patterns. I'm not sure what the claim about "most of these types of games originating in a certain time period" really means. A majority of bullet hell games were probably made in the last decade, and that will probably continue to be true for a long time. If you mean that it's common for these games to contain references to games from the 90s, I agree, but that has nothing to do with whether modern games are written in assembly or how the behaviors are scripted.
    - CyberDildonics 2y ago
      Here's where you dismissively suggested that evaluating and storing locations that might be asked for in the future was unnecessary What you actually said was "evaluates all of the Locations that any pattern could ask for every frame" so you are being very dishonest. None? You think no video game has ever been made without coroutines? I'm not sure what the claim about "most of these types of games originating in a certain time period" really means. What is there to process here? Games in the 80s and 90s were made in assembly language, then C. There were lots of shooters in those two decades, clearly they didn't need coroutines to make bullets and no other game did either. I don't even know how someone gets into a mindset that some shiny programming feature they love is the only way to do things when decades of progress before had nothing to do with it. Lua didn't even have coroutines until 2003.

anonymoushn 2y ago

> You don't think it's possible to read the file when the game loads, see a negative number, and save previous values? That's why we were going to evaluate the locations that we could look into the past for on frames when we weren't looking for them. You decided it wasn't necessary to do so. Can you link some of the ten thousand bullet hell games that are written in your preferred style? It seems like so far we have a lot of games written in one style that include certain kinds of complex behaviors and a lot of games written in another style that do not include these. So I am mostly comparing all of the output of ABA Games, ZUN, and almost every Touhou fan shmup on the one side to nothing on the other, rather than saying "wow, it's so impressive that people were able to make the amazing bullet patterns in Stephen's Sausage Roll with just switch statements!"

CyberDildonics 2y ago
That's why we were going to evaluate the locations that we could look into the past for on frames when we weren't looking for them. You decided it wasn't necessary to do so. ...What? Can you link some of the ten thousand bullet hell games that are written in your preferred style? Games without coroutines? That's almost every game ever made. You realize most of these types of games originated in the 80s and 90s and were made in assembly right?
- anonymoushn 2y ago
  > ...What? Here's where you dismissively suggested that evaluating and storing locations that might be asked for in the future was unnecessary: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41266544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41266544 > Games without coroutines? That's almost every game ever made. Bullet hell games? None? Honestly it took several tries for me to come up with a game that lacks an internal language and VM (e.g. StarCraft and WoW have at least 1 and at least 2 respectively). Stephen's Sausage Roll seems like a potentially winning bet only because I don't think you can make all of it in PuzzleScript, which is what the author normally uses. > You realize most of these types of games originated in the 80s and 90s and were made in assembly right? There weren't any of these games prior to Batsugun in 1993. According to the people who have reverse engineered the games, the more well known DoDonPachi DaiOuJou in 2002 used the same level planner that Toaplan used for Batsugun. Assembly obviously has coroutines, but we know that these games did not use a coroutine implementation for their bullet patterns. I obviously don't work at CAVE and can't just ask the devs what they were thinking, but if you play these games on the original hardware, even though every bullet has no behaviors attached the game will start to run slow when there are a lot of bullets on screen (and the game seems to be tuned around this fact). So I expect that even if the developers wanted to make the sorts of things we have in modern games, they would run too slowly to be practical. To be fair, modern games that use danmakufu or ZUN's ECL or BulletML or Firedancer or Lua would probably have less distinction between "enemies" and "bullets" and the "enemies" in these games often do have some behavior attached. In the case of DoDonPachi DaiOuJou, each enemy that spawns uses one of a small fixed table of movement patterns. I'm not sure what the claim about "most of these types of games originating in a certain time period" really means. A majority of bullet hell games were probably made in the last decade, and that will probably continue to be true for a long time. If you mean that it's common for these games to contain references to games from the 90s, I agree, but that has nothing to do with whether modern games are written in assembly or how the behaviors are scripted.
  - CyberDildonics 2y ago
    Here's where you dismissively suggested that evaluating and storing locations that might be asked for in the future was unnecessary What you actually said was "evaluates all of the Locations that any pattern could ask for every frame" so you are being very dishonest. None? You think no video game has ever been made without coroutines? I'm not sure what the claim about "most of these types of games originating in a certain time period" really means. What is there to process here? Games in the 80s and 90s were made in assembly language, then C. There were lots of shooters in those two decades, clearly they didn't need coroutines to make bullets and no other game did either. I don't even know how someone gets into a mindset that some shiny programming feature they love is the only way to do things when decades of progress before had nothing to do with it. Lua didn't even have coroutines until 2003.