4 ms·

One of my previous advisors, while working on a PhD in sociality in insects, had a lot of time to spend in a front lawn in New York City. Trained to observe he

by xipho 2y ago

One of my previous advisors, while working on a PhD in sociality in insects, had a lot of time to spend in a front lawn in New York City. Trained to observe he recorded hundreds of species, on that lawn. Another insect curator I worked with (also from Texas), collected in a nearby park throughout his lifetime (still is I'm sure). Collected well over 1000 species of beetles, alone. Both were highly, highly trained, in a way that is increasingly disappearing. There are many, many other stories like this. That training included as much how and where to look as it did technical assessment (e.g. what you needed to see to identify species). Because of a whole pile of factors, stubborn old-timers, new technologies, lack of foresight and vision, we're losing that expertise rapidly. By the time we need answers from the vast genetic experiments that come from the lab that is Earth's evolution, we'll not know where, or how to look for them.

NavinF 2y ago
I think it's more so that people aren't interested. If you trained a neural network to classify species using photos taken through a binocular microscope, I'm sure you could match human performance. If you used hyperspectral photos you could achieve superhuman performance.
- pvaldes 2y ago
  > I'm sure you could match human performance Not. You still would need an human to sample this moths, kill them appropriately, and manipulate it carefully to move it in the correct position under your binocular in the correct light and place. They are fragile and you can't do it without an human. Would be worse than what you have currently. No capability to sample selectively, or to jump in advance to all the interesting parts (instead to do all the walk for every single species). In the end you will have a worst performance, much more work to do, and none of the trained experts available to put any control in your system. Mimetic moths can deceive even a well trained expert.
  - spunker540 2y ago
    What if we swap the computer vision solution for a genetic sequencing solution? Can DNA tests can do moth identification at human-level performance?
    - xipho 2y ago
      AI, DNA, morphology. Biodiversity is vast, and diverse. Figuring out the clusters within it (there a huge range of concepts of what a species [== clusters] is), and figuring out how that cluster can be meaningfully applied to issues that affect humans takes time, a lot of time. We commonly say in our research group that all of these are just another tool, we should embrace them all, but we can't escape the time it takes to work with the data at all levels. All the sequencing, AI, and even plain-old pictures in the world doesn't matter if you don't know how to catch the beast. And there are millions and millions of things to look at, all over the world. Again, in working with data at this scope on a day-today basis, not even big data, just broad, I'm struck with how little we can relate to this vastness, and I've been trained for decades to work with it. We have videos from last years conference that highlight the tech that tries to rapidly barcode species, that can give you a flavour of the complexity involved. This is perhaps the world's leading taxonomists exploring how, practically, to do such: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX_1wdmROhU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX_1wdmROhU.
      - kemmishtree 2y ago
        We're going to solve the "species ID" problem for... everything that people can find! Like the completely unidentifiable ladybug my Aunt found in her RV last week in the Texas panhandle—a bizarrely intricate carapace I can't match to any pics of ladybug species anywhere online... What the heck is it! Nobody knows, apparently. It starts with a unique citizen science project—one with bespoke molecular sensing hardware. (note I said it starts there, not that it reaches fruition immediately!) Check it out here: www.molecularReality.com
        pvaldes 2y ago
- adolph 2y ago
  Maybe something like a solar powered game camera only for ant-sized game. Folks seem to go for the Haikubox[0] for bird sound recognition using BirdNet[1]. I'd love to see the little spiders or maybe silkworms that lay tiny lines in the grass of my neighborhood that shimmer in the low morning light and dew. 0. https://haikubox.com/ https://haikubox.com/ 1. https://birdnet.cornell.edu/ https://birdnet.cornell.edu/
- Ovah 2y ago
  I'm very active on iNaturalist. The name suggestions made there by image recognition, at least for the genus I work with, is a complete and utter joke. >98% of name suggestions for that group are incorrect. As soon as a genus becomes diverse, it classifies everything as a single species instead of a genus. It does not have ability to recognize 'the unknown'. Most of my time on that website is wasted on clearing up gross incorrect name suggestions from AI that people accept without any checks of plausibility. Even with species that have >2000 confirmed observations, it still incorrectly suggests the name for obviously completely unrelated species. You didn't take the time to explain what you mean with 'hyperspectral' but I'm assuming it just introduces a new dataset where we start all over.
  - s0rce 2y ago
    I get quite a few genus level suggestions when it can't determine to the species level. I'm not an expert taxonomist so I'm sure there are still many overly specific incorrect assignments.
  - taway789aaa6 2y ago
    hah. tricked you! I rely on folks like you to help me ID the things that the app can obviously not ID correctly :) The best way to get the correct answer on the internet...
  - jfim 2y ago
    Hyperspectral imaging is about collecting images in more than three bands of color (red, green, blue) as perceived by humans. Lots of things look very different in the IR and UV spectra, especially flowers and insects.
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    Seek by iNaturalist got a lot of very positive press here on HN for some reason, but it's crazy. I assume Seek is why iNaturalist classifies everything as a single species with no possibility of 'unknown' - as Seek views the world, the goal of classifying is to produce a species name, and accuracy isn't a concern. I have a photo of an elephant seal that Seek informs me is actually a clouded monitor lizard. I also have two photos of identical plants growing inches apart from each other that Seek informs me are unrelated.
josefresco 2y ago
In 7th grade we had a project to collect, euthanize with alcohol and pin insects for classification and study. Every kid in that class, had to collect 50-100 insects with zero training and most were quite successful. I'm not sure this means anything, but I was amazed at the diversity of the species collected by my classmates.
- xyzzy_plugh 2y ago
  I'm... quite sure "euthanize" isn't the right word here.
  - SapporoChris 2y ago
    I completely understand your point. However, an insect capture and in the hands of an untrained student is arguably probably enduring pain and suffering. So, euthanize does fit, tragically.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - lazide 2y ago
    What do you propose as an alternative?
    - xyzzy_plugh 2y ago
      For the terminology, or the process? Terminology: kill. Process: there seems to be plenty of research, I'd defer to the experts. Some sort of anaesthesia at least seems prudent. From Wikipedia: "Chemicals like alcohol and formalin can destroy nervous tissue but are not humane by themselves and should be preceded by other means of anaesthesia.[1]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insect_euthanasia#:~:text=Chemicals%20like%20alcohol%20and%20formalin%20can%20destroy%20nervous%20tissue%20but%20are%20not%20humane%20by%20themselves%20and%20should%20be%20preceded%20by%20other%20means%20of%20anaesthesia.%5B1%5D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insect_euthanasia#:~:text=Chem...
kjkjadksj 2y ago
What do you mean? There are more stem PhDs than ever before. Field work is still happening. More than ever perhaps with the ever present desire for genomic surveys of natural populations. Not just in academic work but in industry supported work as well.
- vsuperpower2021 2y ago
  It's pretty well known that PhD certificates don't have the same value as they used to. Having more of them is a side effect of that.
- i_am_proteus 2y ago
  Specifically, there are fewer entomologists.

by xipho 2y ago

NavinF 2y ago

I think it's more so that people aren't interested. If you trained a neural network to classify species using photos taken through a binocular microscope, I'm sure you could match human performance. If you used hyperspectral photos you could achieve superhuman performance.

pvaldes 2y ago
> I'm sure you could match human performance Not. You still would need an human to sample this moths, kill them appropriately, and manipulate it carefully to move it in the correct position under your binocular in the correct light and place. They are fragile and you can't do it without an human. Would be worse than what you have currently. No capability to sample selectively, or to jump in advance to all the interesting parts (instead to do all the walk for every single species). In the end you will have a worst performance, much more work to do, and none of the trained experts available to put any control in your system. Mimetic moths can deceive even a well trained expert.
- spunker540 2y ago
  What if we swap the computer vision solution for a genetic sequencing solution? Can DNA tests can do moth identification at human-level performance?
  - xipho 2y ago
    AI, DNA, morphology. Biodiversity is vast, and diverse. Figuring out the clusters within it (there a huge range of concepts of what a species [== clusters] is), and figuring out how that cluster can be meaningfully applied to issues that affect humans takes time, a lot of time. We commonly say in our research group that all of these are just another tool, we should embrace them all, but we can't escape the time it takes to work with the data at all levels. All the sequencing, AI, and even plain-old pictures in the world doesn't matter if you don't know how to catch the beast. And there are millions and millions of things to look at, all over the world. Again, in working with data at this scope on a day-today basis, not even big data, just broad, I'm struck with how little we can relate to this vastness, and I've been trained for decades to work with it. We have videos from last years conference that highlight the tech that tries to rapidly barcode species, that can give you a flavour of the complexity involved. This is perhaps the world's leading taxonomists exploring how, practically, to do such: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX_1wdmROhU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX_1wdmROhU.
    - kemmishtree 2y ago
      We're going to solve the "species ID" problem for... everything that people can find! Like the completely unidentifiable ladybug my Aunt found in her RV last week in the Texas panhandle—a bizarrely intricate carapace I can't match to any pics of ladybug species anywhere online... What the heck is it! Nobody knows, apparently. It starts with a unique citizen science project—one with bespoke molecular sensing hardware. (note I said it starts there, not that it reaches fruition immediately!) Check it out here: www.molecularReality.com
      - pvaldes 2y ago
adolph 2y ago
Maybe something like a solar powered game camera only for ant-sized game. Folks seem to go for the Haikubox[0] for bird sound recognition using BirdNet[1]. I'd love to see the little spiders or maybe silkworms that lay tiny lines in the grass of my neighborhood that shimmer in the low morning light and dew. 0. https://haikubox.com/ https://haikubox.com/ 1. https://birdnet.cornell.edu/ https://birdnet.cornell.edu/
Ovah 2y ago
I'm very active on iNaturalist. The name suggestions made there by image recognition, at least for the genus I work with, is a complete and utter joke. >98% of name suggestions for that group are incorrect. As soon as a genus becomes diverse, it classifies everything as a single species instead of a genus. It does not have ability to recognize 'the unknown'. Most of my time on that website is wasted on clearing up gross incorrect name suggestions from AI that people accept without any checks of plausibility. Even with species that have >2000 confirmed observations, it still incorrectly suggests the name for obviously completely unrelated species. You didn't take the time to explain what you mean with 'hyperspectral' but I'm assuming it just introduces a new dataset where we start all over.
- s0rce 2y ago
  I get quite a few genus level suggestions when it can't determine to the species level. I'm not an expert taxonomist so I'm sure there are still many overly specific incorrect assignments.
- taway789aaa6 2y ago
  hah. tricked you! I rely on folks like you to help me ID the things that the app can obviously not ID correctly :) The best way to get the correct answer on the internet...
- jfim 2y ago
  Hyperspectral imaging is about collecting images in more than three bands of color (red, green, blue) as perceived by humans. Lots of things look very different in the IR and UV spectra, especially flowers and insects.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  Seek by iNaturalist got a lot of very positive press here on HN for some reason, but it's crazy. I assume Seek is why iNaturalist classifies everything as a single species with no possibility of 'unknown' - as Seek views the world, the goal of classifying is to produce a species name, and accuracy isn't a concern. I have a photo of an elephant seal that Seek informs me is actually a clouded monitor lizard. I also have two photos of identical plants growing inches apart from each other that Seek informs me are unrelated.

josefresco 2y ago

In 7th grade we had a project to collect, euthanize with alcohol and pin insects for classification and study. Every kid in that class, had to collect 50-100 insects with zero training and most were quite successful. I'm not sure this means anything, but I was amazed at the diversity of the species collected by my classmates.

xyzzy_plugh 2y ago
I'm... quite sure "euthanize" isn't the right word here.
- SapporoChris 2y ago
  I completely understand your point. However, an insect capture and in the hands of an untrained student is arguably probably enduring pain and suffering. So, euthanize does fit, tragically.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- lazide 2y ago
  What do you propose as an alternative?
  - xyzzy_plugh 2y ago
    For the terminology, or the process? Terminology: kill. Process: there seems to be plenty of research, I'd defer to the experts. Some sort of anaesthesia at least seems prudent. From Wikipedia: "Chemicals like alcohol and formalin can destroy nervous tissue but are not humane by themselves and should be preceded by other means of anaesthesia.[1]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insect_euthanasia#:~:text=Chemicals%20like%20alcohol%20and%20formalin%20can%20destroy%20nervous%20tissue%20but%20are%20not%20humane%20by%20themselves%20and%20should%20be%20preceded%20by%20other%20means%20of%20anaesthesia.%5B1%5D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insect_euthanasia#:~:text=Chem...

kjkjadksj 2y ago

What do you mean? There are more stem PhDs than ever before. Field work is still happening. More than ever perhaps with the ever present desire for genomic surveys of natural populations. Not just in academic work but in industry supported work as well.

vsuperpower2021 2y ago
It's pretty well known that PhD certificates don't have the same value as they used to. Having more of them is a side effect of that.
i_am_proteus 2y ago
Specifically, there are fewer entomologists.