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I don't agree that they write good or intuitive (easiest to use) software, but that's just me. I've hated nearly all of their software paradigms (while drooling

I don't agree that they write good or intuitive (easiest to use) software, but that's just me. I've hated nearly all of their software paradigms (while drooling over their hardware), except for the pinnacle of human achievement: the iPods with the click wheel. But I think the Apple "cult" and the increasing lock in to the ecosystem is party if a negative feedback loop: developers often make apps only for Apple, or make it for Apple first, or just half-ass their Android/Windows versions. So the lock in is encouraged by Apple and amplified by developers. But the while time they are paying for the privilege of the wall garden (and before people get confused again, "walled garden" is just a way of saying "pretty prison", it is not meant to imply you are hanging out at a 5-star all-inclusive resort).

robenkleene 2y ago
> I've hated nearly all of their software paradigms Saying statements like this without provide evidence or examples is pointless. E.G., have you read this article, do you disagree with it? https://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability https://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability > But the while time they are paying for the privilege of the wall garden Again this could use further extrapolation, in vacuum I think we can agree a walled garden is worse for developers than an open platform (for users I'd say that balance is a lot less clear, but if I try to make that argument some folks completely lose it). But we don't live in a vacuum, so I'd say most developers who build for Apple platforms do so because they prefer the toolchain, and that trumps the value of an open platform for them. I used to develop for Apple platforms, and I still think the toolchain is better than anything else I've ever used, and it's not close (I like the debugger integration, the memory tools, and Instruments).
- davidmurdoch 2y ago
  > Saying statements like this without provide evidence or examples is pointless. Evidence of an opinion? I don't think you understand how opinions work.
  - robenkleene 2y ago
    I mean "I don't like X because Y", if you just say categorically "I don't like anything they've done" it just makes you sound like your opinion is really an internal bias against the company, if you support it with evidence and examples, it makes your opinion sound considered.
    - davidmurdoch 2y ago
      If someone hands me an iPhone or Mac and asks me to try to do things I feel frustration. Just rambling here: the navigation paradigms, where the settings are, the animations, cursors, the way the mouse accelerates, the keyboard shortcuts, the icons on windows, maximizing windows, the dock, navigating with Finder creates invisible files directories, the "drag to install" nonsense is one of the dumbest UX paradigms ever (I'm not being facetious). I hope my random ramblings about things I don't assuages your feeling that I'm being inconsiderate. I'm sure there are people who love everything above and who think its perfect.
      - robenkleene 2y ago
        > If someone hands me an iPhone or Mac and asks me to try to do things I feel frustration. Wouldn't this be true if you put anyone in front of an unfamiliar OS? > Just rambling here: the navigation paradigms, where the settings are, the animations, cursors, the way the mouse accelerates, the keyboard shortcuts, the icons on windows, maximizing windows, the dock, navigating with Finder creates invisible files directories, the "drag to install" nonsense is one of the dumbest UX paradigms ever (I'm not being facetious). I summarize most of these as "I don't like the feel of it" which is a straightforward matter of opinion, but that's a different statement then what we started with "I don't agree that they write good or intuitive (easiest to use) software, but that's just me." A statement like this would would also mean showing how another platform does it and demonstrating why that's better or more intuitive. But I guess if you had just said "I don't find their software good or intuitive", I wouldn't have bothered asking these questions. But then, per my first comment, I think if you out anyone in front of an unfamiliar OS and asked them to use it, it would literally take years of use before they'd have an opinion that's not biased based on their prior experience. This is why I don't comment much on how Linux or Windows do things, I just don't have the expertise to say whether their approach is better or worse. One exception is keyboard bindings, because a lot of keyboard bindings come to macOS from Windows especially in the form of cross platform applications, and I've formed the opinion that Windows bindings are worse because of the over reliance on F-keys, which are too far from the homerow and not mmemonic. (This is an example of of what I mean about giving an example, and then a reason I think it's worse). For the record I appreciate your responses, I'm being super pedantic here and you're putting up with it. I feel like, especially when it comes to Apple on HN, which makes people blood boil, it's so hard to figure what people are even talking about when they make their statements. I really think the model of supporting statements with reasoning makes the statements so much ire useful to read.
aworks 2y ago
I've had generally mediocre experiences with Apple products - the original MacBook Air, two iPad Minis, an early iPhone. And for whatever reason, I prefer Windows and Android to MacOS and IOS. But I agree that an iPod with the click wheel is the pinnacle of human achievement. The iPod Classic was the best device I've ever owned.
- alt227 2y ago
  The best thing imo about the clickwheel was it required no training or practice to use. Everyone and their grandmas can pick it up and just use it straight away. Very few hardware interfaces have ever achieved that ubiquity.

robenkleene 2y ago

> I've hated nearly all of their software paradigms Saying statements like this without provide evidence or examples is pointless. E.G., have you read this article, do you disagree with it? https://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability https://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability > But the while time they are paying for the privilege of the wall garden Again this could use further extrapolation, in vacuum I think we can agree a walled garden is worse for developers than an open platform (for users I'd say that balance is a lot less clear, but if I try to make that argument some folks completely lose it). But we don't live in a vacuum, so I'd say most developers who build for Apple platforms do so because they prefer the toolchain, and that trumps the value of an open platform for them. I used to develop for Apple platforms, and I still think the toolchain is better than anything else I've ever used, and it's not close (I like the debugger integration, the memory tools, and Instruments).

davidmurdoch 2y ago
> Saying statements like this without provide evidence or examples is pointless. Evidence of an opinion? I don't think you understand how opinions work.
- robenkleene 2y ago
  I mean "I don't like X because Y", if you just say categorically "I don't like anything they've done" it just makes you sound like your opinion is really an internal bias against the company, if you support it with evidence and examples, it makes your opinion sound considered.
  - davidmurdoch 2y ago
    If someone hands me an iPhone or Mac and asks me to try to do things I feel frustration. Just rambling here: the navigation paradigms, where the settings are, the animations, cursors, the way the mouse accelerates, the keyboard shortcuts, the icons on windows, maximizing windows, the dock, navigating with Finder creates invisible files directories, the "drag to install" nonsense is one of the dumbest UX paradigms ever (I'm not being facetious). I hope my random ramblings about things I don't assuages your feeling that I'm being inconsiderate. I'm sure there are people who love everything above and who think its perfect.
    - robenkleene 2y ago
      > If someone hands me an iPhone or Mac and asks me to try to do things I feel frustration. Wouldn't this be true if you put anyone in front of an unfamiliar OS? > Just rambling here: the navigation paradigms, where the settings are, the animations, cursors, the way the mouse accelerates, the keyboard shortcuts, the icons on windows, maximizing windows, the dock, navigating with Finder creates invisible files directories, the "drag to install" nonsense is one of the dumbest UX paradigms ever (I'm not being facetious). I summarize most of these as "I don't like the feel of it" which is a straightforward matter of opinion, but that's a different statement then what we started with "I don't agree that they write good or intuitive (easiest to use) software, but that's just me." A statement like this would would also mean showing how another platform does it and demonstrating why that's better or more intuitive. But I guess if you had just said "I don't find their software good or intuitive", I wouldn't have bothered asking these questions. But then, per my first comment, I think if you out anyone in front of an unfamiliar OS and asked them to use it, it would literally take years of use before they'd have an opinion that's not biased based on their prior experience. This is why I don't comment much on how Linux or Windows do things, I just don't have the expertise to say whether their approach is better or worse. One exception is keyboard bindings, because a lot of keyboard bindings come to macOS from Windows especially in the form of cross platform applications, and I've formed the opinion that Windows bindings are worse because of the over reliance on F-keys, which are too far from the homerow and not mmemonic. (This is an example of of what I mean about giving an example, and then a reason I think it's worse). For the record I appreciate your responses, I'm being super pedantic here and you're putting up with it. I feel like, especially when it comes to Apple on HN, which makes people blood boil, it's so hard to figure what people are even talking about when they make their statements. I really think the model of supporting statements with reasoning makes the statements so much ire useful to read.

aworks 2y ago

I've had generally mediocre experiences with Apple products - the original MacBook Air, two iPad Minis, an early iPhone. And for whatever reason, I prefer Windows and Android to MacOS and IOS. But I agree that an iPod with the click wheel is the pinnacle of human achievement. The iPod Classic was the best device I've ever owned.

alt227 2y ago
The best thing imo about the clickwheel was it required no training or practice to use. Everyone and their grandmas can pick it up and just use it straight away. Very few hardware interfaces have ever achieved that ubiquity.