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I think this depends on how far you go back. I think Apple has increasingly become a "service" company rather than a company which sells hardware. I do think th

I think this depends on how far you go back. I think Apple has increasingly become a "service" company rather than a company which sells hardware. I do think that the old mantra: "to sell hardware you need to write software" is still true, but I'd personally argue that the main reason Apple has the "easiest to use out of the box" software in 2024 is because their competition sucks. I'm probably an Apple fanboy. I switched to Apple in 2012 after I stopped enjoying the whole "tinkering" part which made running Linux so fun. These days, with the ever increasing lock-in (and price hikes on cloud services) I'd like to get out. Further increased by the fact that Apple doesn't make a small phone (I have relatively small hands). The issue is that I don't really want to deal with Google either. I also don't want to deal with not having the Apple or Google stores on my phone because most of the apps I use (like banking, national IDs, healthcare, tickets for public transportation and others) aren't available outside of those. If I'm on iOS it's still easier to just have the smallest MacBook Air, than to bother getting something else and then setting up synchronisation and so on. But I don't think Apple is "cool" anymore. Not that I disagree with you completely, they were always "evil" but at least they used to make cool stuff.

davidmurdoch 2y ago
I don't agree that they write good or intuitive (easiest to use) software, but that's just me. I've hated nearly all of their software paradigms (while drooling over their hardware), except for the pinnacle of human achievement: the iPods with the click wheel. But I think the Apple "cult" and the increasing lock in to the ecosystem is party if a negative feedback loop: developers often make apps only for Apple, or make it for Apple first, or just half-ass their Android/Windows versions. So the lock in is encouraged by Apple and amplified by developers. But the while time they are paying for the privilege of the wall garden (and before people get confused again, "walled garden" is just a way of saying "pretty prison", it is not meant to imply you are hanging out at a 5-star all-inclusive resort).
- robenkleene 2y ago
  > I've hated nearly all of their software paradigms Saying statements like this without provide evidence or examples is pointless. E.G., have you read this article, do you disagree with it? https://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability https://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability > But the while time they are paying for the privilege of the wall garden Again this could use further extrapolation, in vacuum I think we can agree a walled garden is worse for developers than an open platform (for users I'd say that balance is a lot less clear, but if I try to make that argument some folks completely lose it). But we don't live in a vacuum, so I'd say most developers who build for Apple platforms do so because they prefer the toolchain, and that trumps the value of an open platform for them. I used to develop for Apple platforms, and I still think the toolchain is better than anything else I've ever used, and it's not close (I like the debugger integration, the memory tools, and Instruments).
  - davidmurdoch 2y ago
    > Saying statements like this without provide evidence or examples is pointless. Evidence of an opinion? I don't think you understand how opinions work.
    - robenkleene 2y ago
      I mean "I don't like X because Y", if you just say categorically "I don't like anything they've done" it just makes you sound like your opinion is really an internal bias against the company, if you support it with evidence and examples, it makes your opinion sound considered.
      - davidmurdoch 2y ago
        If someone hands me an iPhone or Mac and asks me to try to do things I feel frustration. Just rambling here: the navigation paradigms, where the settings are, the animations, cursors, the way the mouse accelerates, the keyboard shortcuts, the icons on windows, maximizing windows, the dock, navigating with Finder creates invisible files directories, the "drag to install" nonsense is one of the dumbest UX paradigms ever (I'm not being facetious). I hope my random ramblings about things I don't assuages your feeling that I'm being inconsiderate. I'm sure there are people who love everything above and who think its perfect.
- aworks 2y ago
  I've had generally mediocre experiences with Apple products - the original MacBook Air, two iPad Minis, an early iPhone. And for whatever reason, I prefer Windows and Android to MacOS and IOS. But I agree that an iPod with the click wheel is the pinnacle of human achievement. The iPod Classic was the best device I've ever owned.
  - alt227 2y ago
    The best thing imo about the clickwheel was it required no training or practice to use. Everyone and their grandmas can pick it up and just use it straight away. Very few hardware interfaces have ever achieved that ubiquity.

davidmurdoch 2y ago

I don't agree that they write good or intuitive (easiest to use) software, but that's just me. I've hated nearly all of their software paradigms (while drooling over their hardware), except for the pinnacle of human achievement: the iPods with the click wheel. But I think the Apple "cult" and the increasing lock in to the ecosystem is party if a negative feedback loop: developers often make apps only for Apple, or make it for Apple first, or just half-ass their Android/Windows versions. So the lock in is encouraged by Apple and amplified by developers. But the while time they are paying for the privilege of the wall garden (and before people get confused again, "walled garden" is just a way of saying "pretty prison", it is not meant to imply you are hanging out at a 5-star all-inclusive resort).

robenkleene 2y ago
> I've hated nearly all of their software paradigms Saying statements like this without provide evidence or examples is pointless. E.G., have you read this article, do you disagree with it? https://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability https://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability > But the while time they are paying for the privilege of the wall garden Again this could use further extrapolation, in vacuum I think we can agree a walled garden is worse for developers than an open platform (for users I'd say that balance is a lot less clear, but if I try to make that argument some folks completely lose it). But we don't live in a vacuum, so I'd say most developers who build for Apple platforms do so because they prefer the toolchain, and that trumps the value of an open platform for them. I used to develop for Apple platforms, and I still think the toolchain is better than anything else I've ever used, and it's not close (I like the debugger integration, the memory tools, and Instruments).
- davidmurdoch 2y ago
  > Saying statements like this without provide evidence or examples is pointless. Evidence of an opinion? I don't think you understand how opinions work.
  - robenkleene 2y ago
    I mean "I don't like X because Y", if you just say categorically "I don't like anything they've done" it just makes you sound like your opinion is really an internal bias against the company, if you support it with evidence and examples, it makes your opinion sound considered.
    - davidmurdoch 2y ago
      If someone hands me an iPhone or Mac and asks me to try to do things I feel frustration. Just rambling here: the navigation paradigms, where the settings are, the animations, cursors, the way the mouse accelerates, the keyboard shortcuts, the icons on windows, maximizing windows, the dock, navigating with Finder creates invisible files directories, the "drag to install" nonsense is one of the dumbest UX paradigms ever (I'm not being facetious). I hope my random ramblings about things I don't assuages your feeling that I'm being inconsiderate. I'm sure there are people who love everything above and who think its perfect.
aworks 2y ago
I've had generally mediocre experiences with Apple products - the original MacBook Air, two iPad Minis, an early iPhone. And for whatever reason, I prefer Windows and Android to MacOS and IOS. But I agree that an iPod with the click wheel is the pinnacle of human achievement. The iPod Classic was the best device I've ever owned.
- alt227 2y ago
  The best thing imo about the clickwheel was it required no training or practice to use. Everyone and their grandmas can pick it up and just use it straight away. Very few hardware interfaces have ever achieved that ubiquity.