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The article makes claims that Apple has changed, which is why there is a decline in fanboy praise for the company. But from the outside it just looks like busin

The article makes claims that Apple has changed, which is why there is a decline in fanboy praise for the company. But from the outside it just looks like business as usual.

wslh 2y ago
Yes, it seems like they don't understand than basically fans follows the brand no matter where it goes, and developers will continue to develop there if there is a market (including fans!), even if they are not fans.
- davidmurdoch 2y ago
  It's a vicious cycle
Quothling 2y ago
I think this depends on how far you go back. I think Apple has increasingly become a "service" company rather than a company which sells hardware. I do think that the old mantra: "to sell hardware you need to write software" is still true, but I'd personally argue that the main reason Apple has the "easiest to use out of the box" software in 2024 is because their competition sucks. I'm probably an Apple fanboy. I switched to Apple in 2012 after I stopped enjoying the whole "tinkering" part which made running Linux so fun. These days, with the ever increasing lock-in (and price hikes on cloud services) I'd like to get out. Further increased by the fact that Apple doesn't make a small phone (I have relatively small hands). The issue is that I don't really want to deal with Google either. I also don't want to deal with not having the Apple or Google stores on my phone because most of the apps I use (like banking, national IDs, healthcare, tickets for public transportation and others) aren't available outside of those. If I'm on iOS it's still easier to just have the smallest MacBook Air, than to bother getting something else and then setting up synchronisation and so on. But I don't think Apple is "cool" anymore. Not that I disagree with you completely, they were always "evil" but at least they used to make cool stuff.
- davidmurdoch 2y ago
  I don't agree that they write good or intuitive (easiest to use) software, but that's just me. I've hated nearly all of their software paradigms (while drooling over their hardware), except for the pinnacle of human achievement: the iPods with the click wheel. But I think the Apple "cult" and the increasing lock in to the ecosystem is party if a negative feedback loop: developers often make apps only for Apple, or make it for Apple first, or just half-ass their Android/Windows versions. So the lock in is encouraged by Apple and amplified by developers. But the while time they are paying for the privilege of the wall garden (and before people get confused again, "walled garden" is just a way of saying "pretty prison", it is not meant to imply you are hanging out at a 5-star all-inclusive resort).
  - robenkleene 2y ago
    > I've hated nearly all of their software paradigms Saying statements like this without provide evidence or examples is pointless. E.G., have you read this article, do you disagree with it? https://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability https://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability > But the while time they are paying for the privilege of the wall garden Again this could use further extrapolation, in vacuum I think we can agree a walled garden is worse for developers than an open platform (for users I'd say that balance is a lot less clear, but if I try to make that argument some folks completely lose it). But we don't live in a vacuum, so I'd say most developers who build for Apple platforms do so because they prefer the toolchain, and that trumps the value of an open platform for them. I used to develop for Apple platforms, and I still think the toolchain is better than anything else I've ever used, and it's not close (I like the debugger integration, the memory tools, and Instruments).
    - davidmurdoch 2y ago
      > Saying statements like this without provide evidence or examples is pointless. Evidence of an opinion? I don't think you understand how opinions work.
      - 2y ago
robenkleene 2y ago
This is absolutely categorically not true, Apple use to prioritize the advantages of macOS, which made it a great platform for the big creative tasks, like media creation and editing, and programming (programming is actually one of the areas macOS has taken the least number of hits). Here's Adam Lisagor talking about old Apple (original release of Final Cut Pro) vs new Apple (release of Final Cut Pro X) (https://lonelysandwich.com/post/7033868135/fcp-the-new-class https://lonelysandwich.com/post/7033868135/fcp-the-new-class): > When Apple pushed FCP to the industry pros five or six years ago, they did some hardcore outreach. They brought out Walter Murch, for God’s sake. The man cut Cold Mountain on it for God’s sake. They evangelized by showing what had been done, not by what could be done. But this time out, there is no evangelizing. No Murch. They do a dog and pony with vapid car footage or a Pixar trailer or something. This is meaningless to industry pros who need to know one thing, and it’s a very simple thing: can I edit a _____ on it? You know what I want to know? Can Louie CK edit his show on FCP X? Would he? Would he be happy to do it? Would he speak to a crowd of people about the experience? I could go on in countless ways the company has changed, this is just one axis.
- davidmurdoch 2y ago
  They've been pursuing lock-in and feigning superiority since at least the late '00s. The intensity at which they do that has accelerated, but I think the rate at which they are doing this over time has increased consistently. It's been a great business model, and I'm not in anyway claiming people don't really truly love using their products. To be fair, the same writing is on the wall for Google (they're just bad at it but will figure it out eventually).
  - robenkleene 2y ago
    > They've been pursuing lock-in and feigning superiority since at least the late '00s. Again these could use evidence/examples. But there also tangential to examples I was giving, personally I don't factor in lock-in or "feigning superiority", I just care if the platform is great for certain tasks like media creation and editing, and then becoming worse at that is a recent thing.

The article makes claims that Apple has changed, which is why there is a decline in fanboy praise for the company. But from the outside it just looks like business as usual.

wslh 2y ago

Yes, it seems like they don't understand than basically fans follows the brand no matter where it goes, and developers will continue to develop there if there is a market (including fans!), even if they are not fans.

davidmurdoch 2y ago
It's a vicious cycle

Quothling 2y ago

I think this depends on how far you go back. I think Apple has increasingly become a "service" company rather than a company which sells hardware. I do think that the old mantra: "to sell hardware you need to write software" is still true, but I'd personally argue that the main reason Apple has the "easiest to use out of the box" software in 2024 is because their competition sucks. I'm probably an Apple fanboy. I switched to Apple in 2012 after I stopped enjoying the whole "tinkering" part which made running Linux so fun. These days, with the ever increasing lock-in (and price hikes on cloud services) I'd like to get out. Further increased by the fact that Apple doesn't make a small phone (I have relatively small hands). The issue is that I don't really want to deal with Google either. I also don't want to deal with not having the Apple or Google stores on my phone because most of the apps I use (like banking, national IDs, healthcare, tickets for public transportation and others) aren't available outside of those. If I'm on iOS it's still easier to just have the smallest MacBook Air, than to bother getting something else and then setting up synchronisation and so on. But I don't think Apple is "cool" anymore. Not that I disagree with you completely, they were always "evil" but at least they used to make cool stuff.

davidmurdoch 2y ago
I don't agree that they write good or intuitive (easiest to use) software, but that's just me. I've hated nearly all of their software paradigms (while drooling over their hardware), except for the pinnacle of human achievement: the iPods with the click wheel. But I think the Apple "cult" and the increasing lock in to the ecosystem is party if a negative feedback loop: developers often make apps only for Apple, or make it for Apple first, or just half-ass their Android/Windows versions. So the lock in is encouraged by Apple and amplified by developers. But the while time they are paying for the privilege of the wall garden (and before people get confused again, "walled garden" is just a way of saying "pretty prison", it is not meant to imply you are hanging out at a 5-star all-inclusive resort).
- robenkleene 2y ago
  > I've hated nearly all of their software paradigms Saying statements like this without provide evidence or examples is pointless. E.G., have you read this article, do you disagree with it? https://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability https://daringfireball.net/2004/04/spray_on_usability > But the while time they are paying for the privilege of the wall garden Again this could use further extrapolation, in vacuum I think we can agree a walled garden is worse for developers than an open platform (for users I'd say that balance is a lot less clear, but if I try to make that argument some folks completely lose it). But we don't live in a vacuum, so I'd say most developers who build for Apple platforms do so because they prefer the toolchain, and that trumps the value of an open platform for them. I used to develop for Apple platforms, and I still think the toolchain is better than anything else I've ever used, and it's not close (I like the debugger integration, the memory tools, and Instruments).
  - davidmurdoch 2y ago
    > Saying statements like this without provide evidence or examples is pointless. Evidence of an opinion? I don't think you understand how opinions work.
    - 2y ago

robenkleene 2y ago

This is absolutely categorically not true, Apple use to prioritize the advantages of macOS, which made it a great platform for the big creative tasks, like media creation and editing, and programming (programming is actually one of the areas macOS has taken the least number of hits). Here's Adam Lisagor talking about old Apple (original release of Final Cut Pro) vs new Apple (release of Final Cut Pro X) (https://lonelysandwich.com/post/7033868135/fcp-the-new-class https://lonelysandwich.com/post/7033868135/fcp-the-new-class): > When Apple pushed FCP to the industry pros five or six years ago, they did some hardcore outreach. They brought out Walter Murch, for God’s sake. The man cut Cold Mountain on it for God’s sake. They evangelized by showing what had been done, not by what could be done. But this time out, there is no evangelizing. No Murch. They do a dog and pony with vapid car footage or a Pixar trailer or something. This is meaningless to industry pros who need to know one thing, and it’s a very simple thing: can I edit a _____ on it? You know what I want to know? Can Louie CK edit his show on FCP X? Would he? Would he be happy to do it? Would he speak to a crowd of people about the experience? I could go on in countless ways the company has changed, this is just one axis.

davidmurdoch 2y ago
They've been pursuing lock-in and feigning superiority since at least the late '00s. The intensity at which they do that has accelerated, but I think the rate at which they are doing this over time has increased consistently. It's been a great business model, and I'm not in anyway claiming people don't really truly love using their products. To be fair, the same writing is on the wall for Google (they're just bad at it but will figure it out eventually).
- robenkleene 2y ago
  > They've been pursuing lock-in and feigning superiority since at least the late '00s. Again these could use evidence/examples. But there also tangential to examples I was giving, personally I don't factor in lock-in or "feigning superiority", I just care if the platform is great for certain tasks like media creation and editing, and then becoming worse at that is a recent thing.