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That case of murder was not the only reason. And while it is based on misinformation (and I agree it was made on purpose), just one case would not cause the rio

That case of murder was not the only reason. And while it is based on misinformation (and I agree it was made on purpose), just one case would not cause the riots. It was just “the last drop”.

hermitcrab 2y ago
Some of the people that rioted were a motley assortment of right wing thugs following their warped ideology. Others were just yobs who were gullible enough to believe the misinformation, or just saw an opportunity for mayhem (one of the rioters has, IIRC, 170 previous convictions). Yes, people are frustrated about many things in the UK (lack of affordable housing, dentists, decent jobs etc). But a most of these things are down to austerity, poor governance and the greed of the ruling classes. They aren't caused by relatively tiny numbers (29,437 in 2023) of desperate people coming across the channel in small boats. They are just a convenient scapegoat.
PaulRobinson 2y ago
Perhaps you could explain the previous drops. I don't think they exist, other than as disinformation and propaganda. Migration of all forms is at a record high in the UK [0], yet violent crime is at an all-time low. How is violent crime correlated to migration, as so many people claim on Twitter, WhatsApp groups and Facebook pages? "What about the money we spend on them?", some ask. Well, contrary to popular belief, asylum seekers don't get mainstream benefits [1] and legal migrants aren't entitled to public funds until they have been granted indefinite leave to remain [2]. NHS costs need to be paid for either through the IHS scheme, or directly at 150% of cost [3] "Oh, employed are they? Taking jobs off locals, are they?", the pub bore starts to snort. Well, no. Nobody really wants to spend 12 hours a day running a corner shop, or working in a field picking sprouts on minimum wage, which is why there are record levels of job vacancies in the UK right now. [4] I'll ask again then, where are the previous drops? Migration does not cause increases in crime by any measure, the only costs incurred are caused by delays in processing, they're not "taking anybody's else's job" and overall migration leads to higher tax incomes, and they pay their way for services through taxes on jobs no local wants. So please, spell it out for me. I'm really curious about those previous drops. I suspect that you may have been lied to. [0] https://izajodm.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2193-9039-2-19 https://izajodm.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2193-9039-... [1] https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01909/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01... [2] https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06847/SN06847.pdf https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06... [3] https://www.gov.uk/healthcare-immigration-application/how-much-pay https://www.gov.uk/healthcare-immigration-application/how-mu... [4] https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/jobsandvacanciesintheuk/january2024 https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...
- EugeneOZ 2y ago
  Maybe here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_Kingdo... > The 2023 CONTEST report indicated that 75 per cent of the Security Service (MI5)'s caseload was from monitoring Islamist threats. I don't support the violence and ultra-right (or just right) wings. I think that people have the right to protest.
  - hermitcrab 2y ago
    I doubt you find many people here who are against the right of peaceful protest. But protests are only worthwhile if they address real issues, not misinformation.
  - PaulRobinson 2y ago
    How is beating up police officers protecting the cenotaph “protest” that people should have a legal right to? What about burning down a community library because somebody had put the lie up on a local Facebook page that “all the kids books have been replaced by copies of the Quran”? Never happened, somebody lied, the lie spread, mob burns a public library down. Is that a legally protected right to protest? On the 75% number, well, now you’re showing your hand. I will take your insistence you’re not a fellow traveller at face value, but I do need to point out you have drawn a line of association that the far-right want you to, they do it all the time, and it’s intentional and harmful. You have called out a number referring to Muslims, but the “protests” were meant to be about immigration. Do you not think British people can be Muslim? So let’s dive into the numbers [0], and have a think about something important. In table 2.1 we find “Number of persons arrested for terrorist-related activity, since 11 September 2001, by self-defined nationality”. 3,302 of these people (62.6%), define themselves as British. It seems to me that by the logic of the dominant group being the dominant threat, MI5 should be spying on every Briton they can - these British people are all a threat to public safety! Ah, but of course that’s not what people mean by “British”, is it? And there’s the problem. This is thinly veiled Islamophobia and racism. The far right like to suggest that “Muslim” and “migrant” are synonyms. It’s othering. It’s dehumanising. And you just showed you unconsciously agree at some level. Many people do, and it’s that sort of lazy thinking that means a) we never solve the actual problems we face as a society and b) create divisions when there don’t need to be any. Migration has never been the risk some think it is. Protesting it by looting shops in your local high street is transparent thuggery. Provoking people to do so because of “immigrants” (nudge, nudge, we all know the targets are all brown people), is incitement to racial hatred. Threatening British born people because of their religion and skin colour because of “immigration” is - I think you can agree - not a reasonable form of protest at any level. The objection isn’t sound, never mind the protest action itself. [0] https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/operation-of-police-powers-under-the-terrorism-act-2000-quarterly-update-to-march-2023/operation-of-police-powers-under-the-terrorism-act-2000-and-subsequent-legislation-arrests-outcomes-and-stop-and-search-great-britain-quarterly-u https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/operation-of-police...

That case of murder was not the only reason. And while it is based on misinformation (and I agree it was made on purpose), just one case would not cause the riots. It was just “the last drop”.

hermitcrab 2y ago

Some of the people that rioted were a motley assortment of right wing thugs following their warped ideology. Others were just yobs who were gullible enough to believe the misinformation, or just saw an opportunity for mayhem (one of the rioters has, IIRC, 170 previous convictions). Yes, people are frustrated about many things in the UK (lack of affordable housing, dentists, decent jobs etc). But a most of these things are down to austerity, poor governance and the greed of the ruling classes. They aren't caused by relatively tiny numbers (29,437 in 2023) of desperate people coming across the channel in small boats. They are just a convenient scapegoat.

PaulRobinson 2y ago

Perhaps you could explain the previous drops. I don't think they exist, other than as disinformation and propaganda. Migration of all forms is at a record high in the UK [0], yet violent crime is at an all-time low. How is violent crime correlated to migration, as so many people claim on Twitter, WhatsApp groups and Facebook pages? "What about the money we spend on them?", some ask. Well, contrary to popular belief, asylum seekers don't get mainstream benefits [1] and legal migrants aren't entitled to public funds until they have been granted indefinite leave to remain [2]. NHS costs need to be paid for either through the IHS scheme, or directly at 150% of cost [3] "Oh, employed are they? Taking jobs off locals, are they?", the pub bore starts to snort. Well, no. Nobody really wants to spend 12 hours a day running a corner shop, or working in a field picking sprouts on minimum wage, which is why there are record levels of job vacancies in the UK right now. [4] I'll ask again then, where are the previous drops? Migration does not cause increases in crime by any measure, the only costs incurred are caused by delays in processing, they're not "taking anybody's else's job" and overall migration leads to higher tax incomes, and they pay their way for services through taxes on jobs no local wants. So please, spell it out for me. I'm really curious about those previous drops. I suspect that you may have been lied to. [0] https://izajodm.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2193-9039-2-19 https://izajodm.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2193-9039-... [1] https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01909/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01... [2] https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06847/SN06847.pdf https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06... [3] https://www.gov.uk/healthcare-immigration-application/how-much-pay https://www.gov.uk/healthcare-immigration-application/how-mu... [4] https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/jobsandvacanciesintheuk/january2024 https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...

EugeneOZ 2y ago
Maybe here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_Kingdo... > The 2023 CONTEST report indicated that 75 per cent of the Security Service (MI5)'s caseload was from monitoring Islamist threats. I don't support the violence and ultra-right (or just right) wings. I think that people have the right to protest.
- hermitcrab 2y ago
  I doubt you find many people here who are against the right of peaceful protest. But protests are only worthwhile if they address real issues, not misinformation.
- PaulRobinson 2y ago
  How is beating up police officers protecting the cenotaph “protest” that people should have a legal right to? What about burning down a community library because somebody had put the lie up on a local Facebook page that “all the kids books have been replaced by copies of the Quran”? Never happened, somebody lied, the lie spread, mob burns a public library down. Is that a legally protected right to protest? On the 75% number, well, now you’re showing your hand. I will take your insistence you’re not a fellow traveller at face value, but I do need to point out you have drawn a line of association that the far-right want you to, they do it all the time, and it’s intentional and harmful. You have called out a number referring to Muslims, but the “protests” were meant to be about immigration. Do you not think British people can be Muslim? So let’s dive into the numbers [0], and have a think about something important. In table 2.1 we find “Number of persons arrested for terrorist-related activity, since 11 September 2001, by self-defined nationality”. 3,302 of these people (62.6%), define themselves as British. It seems to me that by the logic of the dominant group being the dominant threat, MI5 should be spying on every Briton they can - these British people are all a threat to public safety! Ah, but of course that’s not what people mean by “British”, is it? And there’s the problem. This is thinly veiled Islamophobia and racism. The far right like to suggest that “Muslim” and “migrant” are synonyms. It’s othering. It’s dehumanising. And you just showed you unconsciously agree at some level. Many people do, and it’s that sort of lazy thinking that means a) we never solve the actual problems we face as a society and b) create divisions when there don’t need to be any. Migration has never been the risk some think it is. Protesting it by looting shops in your local high street is transparent thuggery. Provoking people to do so because of “immigrants” (nudge, nudge, we all know the targets are all brown people), is incitement to racial hatred. Threatening British born people because of their religion and skin colour because of “immigration” is - I think you can agree - not a reasonable form of protest at any level. The objection isn’t sound, never mind the protest action itself. [0] https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/operation-of-police-powers-under-the-terrorism-act-2000-quarterly-update-to-march-2023/operation-of-police-powers-under-the-terrorism-act-2000-and-subsequent-legislation-arrests-outcomes-and-stop-and-search-great-britain-quarterly-u https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/operation-of-police...