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>The problem with China is that the argument is much harder to win - china is doing well economically (kinda) - and has not given up its totalitarian control.

>The problem with China is that the argument is much harder to win - china is doing well economically (kinda) - and has not given up its totalitarian control. China's GDP _per capita_ is still 4-8x lower than the US depending on how you measure it. Its overall GDP is just very big because its population is very big. Given the recent slowdown in the Chinese economy, it's looking like it'll take a very long time for per capita GDP (the living standards of Chinese people) to catch up to the US.

fragmede 2y ago
> per capita GDP (the living standards of Chinese people) note that the parenthetical isn't entirely true. it's a very mathematical measure of living standards, and sure, one number is much bigger than the other, which does mean something, but how happy are you really doomscrolling various feeds about how the world is doomed? The wrong person's gonna get elected, you just know it. How happy can you really be knowing that to be the future? Or, hey, know anybody who's died from fentanyl recently? There's a lot GDP doesn't capture. Hell, in terms of buying more things and driving the economy, you could look at it and say divorce is good for GDP since everybody is now buying twice as much stuff, not to mention all the lawyers bills. Not sure I'd argue that it's great for living standards though. so yes, let's compare GDP for what it measures, money number divided by people number, and see that our number is bigger, yay. But simplifying that to living standards is lazy shortcut thinking. If a FAANG engineer makes $400k/yr, but minimum wage is $15/hr or $30,000, their average pay is $215k, which sounds pretty great! The living standards for two someones making $215k are much nicer than for the one person making $30k. How much do you trust your neighbors? How about those city/rural/suburb folk, especially the ones the extremists on the opposite side of the political spectrum? That contribute to a good living standard? GDP isn't a good measure of living standards, it's a neat number to compare, and means something, but it doesn't define living standards.
torginus 2y ago
Honestly, I'm less and less inclined to believe in these numbers. If your average Chinese person lives in a comfortable, well-built apartment that costs 1/4th of what it would cost in the US, drives a car that's similarly built but cost $10k instead of $40k, and eats food thats the quarter of the price, could you convincingly state that he has the quarter of the actual wealth, even though the numbers would indicate that.
- aurareturn 2y ago
  That’s what GDP PPP per capital measures. China ranks better in PPP than just straight GDP.
  - torginus 2y ago
    Honestly PPP is one of those measures that has remained a mystery to me all my life, and I suspect has more to do with the fanciful imaginations of economists rather than reality itself. I live in a smallish east EU country whose PPP is supposedly double that of nominal GDP, yet whenever the prices I'm expected to pay for a Corolla, my shopping in Lidl or a Macbook are largely the same as what I would pay in Germany (as is expected from a customs union). Even restaurant prices don't match the differences.
    - Jensson 2y ago
      > my shopping in Lidl or a Macbook are largely the same as what I would pay in Germany The difference probably the Germans don't go buy at cheap stores like lidl. The easy way to do PPP is to go by how much people pay and not how cheap you can get something for, which gets you a much less accurate picture of how much it actually costs to live there.
      - torginus 2y ago
        Haha, Germans not being cheap :) That being aside, I mentioned Lidl cause they sell pretty much the same stuff in both countries. As for PPP, it's supposed to be based on a basket of goods, which is supposed to be as similar between two countries as possible. Comparing lower quality products in country A to better ones in country B would tell you nothing.

fragmede 2y ago

> per capita GDP (the living standards of Chinese people) note that the parenthetical isn't entirely true. it's a very mathematical measure of living standards, and sure, one number is much bigger than the other, which does mean something, but how happy are you really doomscrolling various feeds about how the world is doomed? The wrong person's gonna get elected, you just know it. How happy can you really be knowing that to be the future? Or, hey, know anybody who's died from fentanyl recently? There's a lot GDP doesn't capture. Hell, in terms of buying more things and driving the economy, you could look at it and say divorce is good for GDP since everybody is now buying twice as much stuff, not to mention all the lawyers bills. Not sure I'd argue that it's great for living standards though. so yes, let's compare GDP for what it measures, money number divided by people number, and see that our number is bigger, yay. But simplifying that to living standards is lazy shortcut thinking. If a FAANG engineer makes $400k/yr, but minimum wage is $15/hr or $30,000, their average pay is $215k, which sounds pretty great! The living standards for two someones making $215k are much nicer than for the one person making $30k. How much do you trust your neighbors? How about those city/rural/suburb folk, especially the ones the extremists on the opposite side of the political spectrum? That contribute to a good living standard? GDP isn't a good measure of living standards, it's a neat number to compare, and means something, but it doesn't define living standards.

torginus 2y ago

Honestly, I'm less and less inclined to believe in these numbers. If your average Chinese person lives in a comfortable, well-built apartment that costs 1/4th of what it would cost in the US, drives a car that's similarly built but cost $10k instead of $40k, and eats food thats the quarter of the price, could you convincingly state that he has the quarter of the actual wealth, even though the numbers would indicate that.

aurareturn 2y ago
That’s what GDP PPP per capital measures. China ranks better in PPP than just straight GDP.
- torginus 2y ago
  Honestly PPP is one of those measures that has remained a mystery to me all my life, and I suspect has more to do with the fanciful imaginations of economists rather than reality itself. I live in a smallish east EU country whose PPP is supposedly double that of nominal GDP, yet whenever the prices I'm expected to pay for a Corolla, my shopping in Lidl or a Macbook are largely the same as what I would pay in Germany (as is expected from a customs union). Even restaurant prices don't match the differences.
  - Jensson 2y ago
    > my shopping in Lidl or a Macbook are largely the same as what I would pay in Germany The difference probably the Germans don't go buy at cheap stores like lidl. The easy way to do PPP is to go by how much people pay and not how cheap you can get something for, which gets you a much less accurate picture of how much it actually costs to live there.
    - torginus 2y ago
      Haha, Germans not being cheap :) That being aside, I mentioned Lidl cause they sell pretty much the same stuff in both countries. As for PPP, it's supposed to be based on a basket of goods, which is supposed to be as similar between two countries as possible. Comparing lower quality products in country A to better ones in country B would tell you nothing.