5 ms·

Faust himself didn't get tricked. He was offered the chance to get out of it until the very last instant. There wasn't any sneaky wording. There wasn't anything

Faust himself didn't get tricked. He was offered the chance to get out of it until the very last instant. There wasn't any sneaky wording. There wasn't anything to outwit. At the beginning he somehow convinced himself that his soul didn't really exist, despite the presence of a literal devil in front of him, offering the power to do genuine magic. At the end he somehow just couldn't bring himself to repent. In between he uses his power for absolutely nothing of interest. The most earth shaking thing he does is that he plays a prank on the Pope. I'll be honest that I really don't get the point of the story. It's not about the devil being a trickster. If anything it reads kinda like a self critique by Marlowe, but that reading is also kinda shaky. It's more like people just wanted to see an academic get taken down a peg.

CobrastanJorji 2y ago
Even if the Devil was being honest with the terms, Faust did get tricked so long as he did not believe in souls, even if it was Faust tricking himself, and presumably the Devil was counting on that, knowing as he did that it was a bad deal. That's not unbelievable. It's human nature. I think a lot of real life businesses that work more or less the same way. It's a tragic tale about a pretty regular guy convincing himself to accept a shitty deal because the short term upside sounds pretty great, despite not even particular wanting or needing that upside.
- lazide 2y ago
  Have I mentioned that I’d be happy to loan you money for your startup’s cashflow issues, with deferred interest, secured only by your immortal soul?
  - lelanthran 2y ago
    > Have I mentioned that I’d be happy to loan you money for your startup’s cashflow issues, with deferred interest, secured only by your immortal soul? Well I'm atheist, so I don't believe in souls. I guess I'll ... take the deal?
    - lazide 2y ago
      Which brings up another question - is selling something for material gain that you legitimately believe doesn’t exist fraud? I’m imagining the court precedent in this particular case would be delicious. Also, this is funny [https://www.catholic.com/qa/is-it-possible-to-unsell-ones-soul-to-the-devil https://www.catholic.com/qa/is-it-possible-to-unsell-ones-so...].
      - mjan22640 2y ago
        As long as you are open about it and the other side is fine with that, it's not a fraud from your side.
      - derivagral 2y ago
        This goes somewhat deeper than you might expect. "Literal" spells are for sale on e.g. ebay, and presumably authenticity/belief are managed like reputation? https://www.ebay.co.uk/b/bn_7023443545 https://www.ebay.co.uk/b/bn_7023443545
      - jfengel 2y ago
        I recall when eBay had to face that question. Their conclusion: * If a soul does not exist, it's not a valid eBay auction. * If a soul does exist, it's a body part, and forbidden from selling on eBay. I could poke some holes in their ontology, but I thought the conclusion was very clever.
        CobrastanJorji 2y ago
        That was such a cop-out. Souls are part of the person, but their whole deal is not being part of the body.
        lazide 2y ago
        Are we talking European souls, south west Asian souls, or East Asian souls? I’m pretty sure Daoist, Buddhist, or Hindu souls are not sellable conceptually in the way European souls are. One of those times when ‘無門關’ (mu-koan) might be the right answer. Not really a thing, in the western concept anyway. Anymore than it’s possible to square a circle, or calculate Pi from a line. Maybe that’s why European cultures have been taking over the world? We were able to sell our souls to the devil? Looks like Jews don’t have a concept of selling ones soul anymore than Hindus. [https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1093498/jewish/Can-You-Sell-Your-Soul-to-the-Devil.htm https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1093498/jewis...]. Muslims seem divided on the topic (among many others), with a pretty solid ‘western’ type tradition of ‘you bet, but you’ll regret it’ to a similar type view of the Catholics near as I can tell (no, and you’ll be forgiven if you get back on the right path). I guess it behooves one to familiarize oneself with something one is willing to take as collateral, eh? P.S. If you’re an atheist who doesn’t believe in a soul, then clearly you’re a soulless bastard. ;) (Leaving out the extremely wide variety of African and various covered regions indigenous peoples Soul-concepts for brevity).
  - aftbit 2y ago
    How much money and how deferred? If you're willing to wait until after I'm dead, we can talk.
  - kmeisthax 2y ago
    This sounds like an SCP waiting to be written.
    - dta5003 2y ago
      https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-738 https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-738
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
biztos 2y ago
The point depends on the version, no? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_based_on_Faust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_based_on_Faust Marlowe being neither the first nor the most influential.
- jfengel 2y ago
  Yeah, true. I'm a Shakespearean actor, and so Marlowe's version is most important to me. It has at least has one famous line ("The face that launched a thousand ships"). I actually should at least familiarize myself with Goethe's version.
kikokikokiko 2y ago
"At the beginning he somehow convinced himself that his soul didn't really exist, despite the presence of a literal devil in front of him, offering the power to do genuine magic." To be fair, if a "devil" suddenly showed up in front of me, offering me anything I ever wanted in exchange for my "soul", my worldview would not change. Since this "devil" exists, it is part of the natural world, I just can't know exactly what it is or where did it came from. I might as well accept the offer this alien/ultra advanced AI/simulation being/whatever offers me, since this simple fact of something appearing out of nothing is not in any way a proof of God's existence, or of souls being a thing etc. If that was the case, when the Europeans arrived in America, with gunpowder and ocean capable ships, the natives should have, obviously, accepted as fact that they were gods... well, it didn't end well for the Aztecs.

CobrastanJorji 2y ago

Even if the Devil was being honest with the terms, Faust did get tricked so long as he did not believe in souls, even if it was Faust tricking himself, and presumably the Devil was counting on that, knowing as he did that it was a bad deal. That's not unbelievable. It's human nature. I think a lot of real life businesses that work more or less the same way. It's a tragic tale about a pretty regular guy convincing himself to accept a shitty deal because the short term upside sounds pretty great, despite not even particular wanting or needing that upside.

lazide 2y ago
Have I mentioned that I’d be happy to loan you money for your startup’s cashflow issues, with deferred interest, secured only by your immortal soul?
- lelanthran 2y ago
  > Have I mentioned that I’d be happy to loan you money for your startup’s cashflow issues, with deferred interest, secured only by your immortal soul? Well I'm atheist, so I don't believe in souls. I guess I'll ... take the deal?
  - lazide 2y ago
    Which brings up another question - is selling something for material gain that you legitimately believe doesn’t exist fraud? I’m imagining the court precedent in this particular case would be delicious. Also, this is funny [https://www.catholic.com/qa/is-it-possible-to-unsell-ones-soul-to-the-devil https://www.catholic.com/qa/is-it-possible-to-unsell-ones-so...].
    - mjan22640 2y ago
      As long as you are open about it and the other side is fine with that, it's not a fraud from your side.
    - derivagral 2y ago
      This goes somewhat deeper than you might expect. "Literal" spells are for sale on e.g. ebay, and presumably authenticity/belief are managed like reputation? https://www.ebay.co.uk/b/bn_7023443545 https://www.ebay.co.uk/b/bn_7023443545
    - jfengel 2y ago
      I recall when eBay had to face that question. Their conclusion: * If a soul does not exist, it's not a valid eBay auction. * If a soul does exist, it's a body part, and forbidden from selling on eBay. I could poke some holes in their ontology, but I thought the conclusion was very clever.
      - CobrastanJorji 2y ago
        That was such a cop-out. Souls are part of the person, but their whole deal is not being part of the body.
        lazide 2y ago
        Are we talking European souls, south west Asian souls, or East Asian souls? I’m pretty sure Daoist, Buddhist, or Hindu souls are not sellable conceptually in the way European souls are. One of those times when ‘無門關’ (mu-koan) might be the right answer. Not really a thing, in the western concept anyway. Anymore than it’s possible to square a circle, or calculate Pi from a line. Maybe that’s why European cultures have been taking over the world? We were able to sell our souls to the devil? Looks like Jews don’t have a concept of selling ones soul anymore than Hindus. [https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1093498/jewish/Can-You-Sell-Your-Soul-to-the-Devil.htm https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1093498/jewis...]. Muslims seem divided on the topic (among many others), with a pretty solid ‘western’ type tradition of ‘you bet, but you’ll regret it’ to a similar type view of the Catholics near as I can tell (no, and you’ll be forgiven if you get back on the right path). I guess it behooves one to familiarize oneself with something one is willing to take as collateral, eh? P.S. If you’re an atheist who doesn’t believe in a soul, then clearly you’re a soulless bastard. ;) (Leaving out the extremely wide variety of African and various covered regions indigenous peoples Soul-concepts for brevity).
- aftbit 2y ago
  How much money and how deferred? If you're willing to wait until after I'm dead, we can talk.
- kmeisthax 2y ago
  This sounds like an SCP waiting to be written.
  - dta5003 2y ago
    https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-738 https://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-738
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

biztos 2y ago

The point depends on the version, no? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_based_on_Faust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_based_on_Faust Marlowe being neither the first nor the most influential.

jfengel 2y ago
Yeah, true. I'm a Shakespearean actor, and so Marlowe's version is most important to me. It has at least has one famous line ("The face that launched a thousand ships"). I actually should at least familiarize myself with Goethe's version.

kikokikokiko 2y ago

"At the beginning he somehow convinced himself that his soul didn't really exist, despite the presence of a literal devil in front of him, offering the power to do genuine magic." To be fair, if a "devil" suddenly showed up in front of me, offering me anything I ever wanted in exchange for my "soul", my worldview would not change. Since this "devil" exists, it is part of the natural world, I just can't know exactly what it is or where did it came from. I might as well accept the offer this alien/ultra advanced AI/simulation being/whatever offers me, since this simple fact of something appearing out of nothing is not in any way a proof of God's existence, or of souls being a thing etc. If that was the case, when the Europeans arrived in America, with gunpowder and ocean capable ships, the natives should have, obviously, accepted as fact that they were gods... well, it didn't end well for the Aztecs.