7 ms·

One thing I never understood about dealing with the Devil. When the Devil shows up, it changes the calculus. Now the person knows there is a heaven and hell, e

One thing I never understood about dealing with the Devil. When the Devil shows up, it changes the calculus. Now the person knows there is a heaven and hell, etc. What used to be a reasonable decision is now outrageously wrong.

antonvs 2y ago
You're applying a modern sensibility. Originally, the skepticism you're alluding to didn't exist. The existence of a god and the various related phenomena was taken for granted. Given the knowledge of the time, how else could humans have come into existence? Widespread skepticism of those beliefs didn't start until the Englightment and the discovery of evolution.
- im3w1l 2y ago
  I wonder.. Back in polytheistic times did people really believe all those stories about their pantheon? It seems to me that the lines between true history, pious belief, and entertainment were all kinds of blurred. Maybe people simply didn't really care too much whether the stories were true or not?
  - solresol 2y ago
    Pretty much. The Greek pantheists weren't that different to Marvel or Star Wars fans. The point of the mythology was to have a common identity. If you asked the priest at the template of Demeter "Next spring, I'd like to go and meet Persephone on her journey to home to Demeter, which road does she normally take?" -- they would think you were some kind of fool getting reality and myth confused, while thinking up some mythology about your journey that would turn into a nice play next year. The modern-day equivalent would be meeting a travel agent at a DC Comics convention and asking them to book flights for you to Gotham City. The best-case outcome is that they write some fan-fiction about you. This was one of the reasons that Christianity was very disruptive, and exploded across the Graeco-Roman world over the following centuries. It provided a common identity with historical grounding -- if you wanted to go to the temple in Jerusalem where Jesus had kicked the merchants out, you could, and there was no ambiguity or vagueness about which one this happened in even after it was destroyed.
    - asdff 2y ago
      Graeco roman beliefs had historical grounding too. Mt. Olympus is a real place. The pillars of Hades were real. Cities were founded by gods and they existed right in front of people. Offerings would be made and outcomes would happen. What was really so disruptive about christianity was the aspect of proselytization. That was new with christianity that wasn't really an aspect of judaism. And with proselytization came a need for formal organization of the faith, which served as a useful tool for government to maintain a mandate of power and quell divergent beliefs as heathen or even worthy of crusade, in contrast to synecratic greco-roman paganism.
    - simiones 2y ago
      > The Greek pantheists weren't that different to Marvel or Star Wars fans. What are you basing this on? (And note, I think you mean "polytheists", as pantheists are people who don't typically believe in gods, but in the idea that everything in the universe is divine). Polytheistic people pray to the gods just like monotheistic people do. Some believe in more concrete notions of their gods, some in more poetic ones, and both co-exist in the same societies. Just like many Christians believe Jesus existed, lived, died, and became physically resurrected, so do many modern-day polytheists, and many ancient ones as well. And beyond the specifics of the stories, people most of all believed and believe that performing or not performing certain rituals will attract the benevolence or ire of their gods. They perform rituals to attract the rain, or to bring good luck in battle, or to bless their crops. They try to put curses on their enemies or competitors. These are all real beliefs that exist today, in both polytheistic and monotheistic religions, and that have existed since the dawn of humanity based on everything we know. And one clear proof that people truly believed and still believe in the importance of these things is the significant resources they are willing to invest in them. Sometimes they directly perform sacrifices, sometimes they give money for the building of altars, sometimes they sacrifice their time or enjoyment towards these goals.
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      I think this is not really true. They did all sorts of things… like, these fairly poor (by modern standards) people sacrificed valuable resources to their gods. There is no particular reason to think they believed in their gods any less than current religious people.
  - krapp 2y ago
    I think they certainly believed in the existence of the gods as something more than metaphor (although there were skeptics then as there always are,) and many people probably considered their own local myths to be true. It doesn't seem any less likely to me than Biblical literalists today. I think people forget that what we now consider mythology was more often than not religion to people of the time.
  - User23 2y ago
    > It seems to me that the lines between true history, pious belief, and entertainment were all kinds of blurred. This is (unintentionally?) hilarious.
  - mcmoor 2y ago
    This article argues that people did believe it, or at least believe that their rituals actually matters https://acoup.blog/2019/10/25/collections-practical-polytheism-part-i-knowledge/ https://acoup.blog/2019/10/25/collections-practical-polythei...
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      Darn, I wanted to link the article. Something that really stuck with me is that they seemed to believe in their gods in an interesting way: they specifically negotiated their vows, being very explicit about what is promised. Because they really expect the gods to punish them in the corporal world, shortly We’re a lot more loose with our vows nowadays. Although to be fair, negotiations with all-powerful monotheistic gods don’t make as much sense in the first place, really. Most of these gods are so powerful that you can’t really offer them anything but obedience/loyalty/love.
  - asdff 2y ago
    Back then people probably didn't even all have the same sorts of stories about their myths straight. And while we think today we are so enlightened having little faith in these things, we are more in line with these people than we might admit, the common thread being herd mentality. Consider yourself, are you an atheist because you sat down one day and came up with your own philosophy about it? Or are you an atheist because there are millions of westerners today who are also atheists and its an existing off the shelf philosophy that is easy to adopt, and you happened to fall into it? Maybe you did work it out yourself, but for many people their sensibilities and beliefs tend to fall into discrete categories already present to a good degree in a society, versus being truly novel concepts unique to them.
    - Earw0rm 2y ago
      "Atheist" feels like such a strange and artificial category, lumping people together on the basis of what they don't believe rather than what they do. It's a bit like defining everyone who isn't Indo-European or Asiatic as "black", even though there's more genetic diversity in Africa than the rest of the world put together.
      - renox 2y ago
        > "Atheist" feels like such a strange and artificial category Bah, not any more that any other category: I have religious friends who are in theory from the same religion: some believe in heaven some don't, some believe in the miracles some don't, etc.. But yes, there can be atheists who believe that the earth is flat or that crystals can heal, etc.
        Earw0rm 2y ago
        But they all identify with the same hierarchical structure to some degree, at least if we're talking about a group like Roman Catholics, Sunni Muslims etc. It gets more complicated of course where e.g. Judaism is concerned, because that's more than just a religion.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    Those stories also serve as a tapestry upon which to build tribal bonds. Beliefs are not necessary for them to serve a purpose. Just like how 90% of people who proclaim they belong to x religion don’t actually believe in stuff the religion proclaims, but it is useful for displaying tribal allegiance. In some cases, the feigning of belief in obviously false things can even help to serve as a signal for how strong your conviction is to others in a tribe. In the same vein, being a hypocrite can also be seen as a display of “look at the rules I am willing to break, and so I might be willing to break some for you”. Or at least, it shows the belief that some people are above the rules.
  - Earw0rm 2y ago
    "believe" and "true" as you're using them are relatively modern, secular concepts, the idea that anything can be tested to destruction and deemed true or false, and the idea that stories are superimposed upon the world rather than being inherently part of it. If as a pre-modern person, you don't believe in a God or Gods, what fills the void? Nowadays the boundary of our knowledge stretches far beyond day to day life in many respects, but if you don't know about a round Earth, or the solar system, or how weather systems work, how else do you explain phenomena that have a material impact on your day to day life as a subsistence farmer? Pre Christianity, there wasn't really God's law and Man's law, there was just law. Even today, if you ask a highly educated religious person about their faith, you'll often find a concept of truth in some ways broader than the secular, material variety.
  - lazide 2y ago
    Do you really believe in the existence of Pluto? For them, it was the same type of situation.
  - peoplefromibiza 2y ago
    > did people really believe all those stories about their pantheon They did, in the same way we still believe in the horoscope, lucky numbers, miraculous diets or having success by reading the same books CEOs read. Does it really brings bad luck if 13 people sit at the same table for a dinner? And what about Friday the 13th? In many sports competitions the number 17 is removed, because, you know, better safe than sorry.
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      Or in the same way that modern religious people believe the stories in their books, right? Which is to say, opinions vary, but some go right up to literalism. I’m very confused as to why folks in this thread seem to think that ancient people were any different in their religious beliefs than modern ones.
robocat 2y ago
Baysian probability is technology??? The term Bayesian derives from Thomas Bayes (1702–1761), who proved a special case of what is now called Bayes' theorem in a paper titled "An Essay Towards Solving a Problem in the Doctrine of Chances". Did the devil know about modern probability theory before we did?
- _yb2s 2y ago
  Bayesian probability is just a mathematical description of optimal learning process from data, e.g. common sense. It is already built into every living thing[1], because it is the best way to respond to your environment. [1] https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2017.0792 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2017.079...
bee_rider 2y ago
If a Devil showed up and could grant wishes, it would be a phenomenon in the universe we could do science at. Thing better look out, we’re going to try and capture it, squeeze the wish-juice out or whatever.
- tines 2y ago
  Ah, the hubris!
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    Not hubris, pride—I’m the bait, I’ll draw the thing’s attention with all my sinning, you see if you can knock it out.

antonvs 2y ago

You're applying a modern sensibility. Originally, the skepticism you're alluding to didn't exist. The existence of a god and the various related phenomena was taken for granted. Given the knowledge of the time, how else could humans have come into existence? Widespread skepticism of those beliefs didn't start until the Englightment and the discovery of evolution.

im3w1l 2y ago
I wonder.. Back in polytheistic times did people really believe all those stories about their pantheon? It seems to me that the lines between true history, pious belief, and entertainment were all kinds of blurred. Maybe people simply didn't really care too much whether the stories were true or not?
- solresol 2y ago
  Pretty much. The Greek pantheists weren't that different to Marvel or Star Wars fans. The point of the mythology was to have a common identity. If you asked the priest at the template of Demeter "Next spring, I'd like to go and meet Persephone on her journey to home to Demeter, which road does she normally take?" -- they would think you were some kind of fool getting reality and myth confused, while thinking up some mythology about your journey that would turn into a nice play next year. The modern-day equivalent would be meeting a travel agent at a DC Comics convention and asking them to book flights for you to Gotham City. The best-case outcome is that they write some fan-fiction about you. This was one of the reasons that Christianity was very disruptive, and exploded across the Graeco-Roman world over the following centuries. It provided a common identity with historical grounding -- if you wanted to go to the temple in Jerusalem where Jesus had kicked the merchants out, you could, and there was no ambiguity or vagueness about which one this happened in even after it was destroyed.
  - asdff 2y ago
    Graeco roman beliefs had historical grounding too. Mt. Olympus is a real place. The pillars of Hades were real. Cities were founded by gods and they existed right in front of people. Offerings would be made and outcomes would happen. What was really so disruptive about christianity was the aspect of proselytization. That was new with christianity that wasn't really an aspect of judaism. And with proselytization came a need for formal organization of the faith, which served as a useful tool for government to maintain a mandate of power and quell divergent beliefs as heathen or even worthy of crusade, in contrast to synecratic greco-roman paganism.
  - simiones 2y ago
    > The Greek pantheists weren't that different to Marvel or Star Wars fans. What are you basing this on? (And note, I think you mean "polytheists", as pantheists are people who don't typically believe in gods, but in the idea that everything in the universe is divine). Polytheistic people pray to the gods just like monotheistic people do. Some believe in more concrete notions of their gods, some in more poetic ones, and both co-exist in the same societies. Just like many Christians believe Jesus existed, lived, died, and became physically resurrected, so do many modern-day polytheists, and many ancient ones as well. And beyond the specifics of the stories, people most of all believed and believe that performing or not performing certain rituals will attract the benevolence or ire of their gods. They perform rituals to attract the rain, or to bring good luck in battle, or to bless their crops. They try to put curses on their enemies or competitors. These are all real beliefs that exist today, in both polytheistic and monotheistic religions, and that have existed since the dawn of humanity based on everything we know. And one clear proof that people truly believed and still believe in the importance of these things is the significant resources they are willing to invest in them. Sometimes they directly perform sacrifices, sometimes they give money for the building of altars, sometimes they sacrifice their time or enjoyment towards these goals.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    I think this is not really true. They did all sorts of things… like, these fairly poor (by modern standards) people sacrificed valuable resources to their gods. There is no particular reason to think they believed in their gods any less than current religious people.
- krapp 2y ago
  I think they certainly believed in the existence of the gods as something more than metaphor (although there were skeptics then as there always are,) and many people probably considered their own local myths to be true. It doesn't seem any less likely to me than Biblical literalists today. I think people forget that what we now consider mythology was more often than not religion to people of the time.
- User23 2y ago
  > It seems to me that the lines between true history, pious belief, and entertainment were all kinds of blurred. This is (unintentionally?) hilarious.
- mcmoor 2y ago
  This article argues that people did believe it, or at least believe that their rituals actually matters https://acoup.blog/2019/10/25/collections-practical-polytheism-part-i-knowledge/ https://acoup.blog/2019/10/25/collections-practical-polythei...
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    Darn, I wanted to link the article. Something that really stuck with me is that they seemed to believe in their gods in an interesting way: they specifically negotiated their vows, being very explicit about what is promised. Because they really expect the gods to punish them in the corporal world, shortly We’re a lot more loose with our vows nowadays. Although to be fair, negotiations with all-powerful monotheistic gods don’t make as much sense in the first place, really. Most of these gods are so powerful that you can’t really offer them anything but obedience/loyalty/love.
- asdff 2y ago
  Back then people probably didn't even all have the same sorts of stories about their myths straight. And while we think today we are so enlightened having little faith in these things, we are more in line with these people than we might admit, the common thread being herd mentality. Consider yourself, are you an atheist because you sat down one day and came up with your own philosophy about it? Or are you an atheist because there are millions of westerners today who are also atheists and its an existing off the shelf philosophy that is easy to adopt, and you happened to fall into it? Maybe you did work it out yourself, but for many people their sensibilities and beliefs tend to fall into discrete categories already present to a good degree in a society, versus being truly novel concepts unique to them.
  - Earw0rm 2y ago
    "Atheist" feels like such a strange and artificial category, lumping people together on the basis of what they don't believe rather than what they do. It's a bit like defining everyone who isn't Indo-European or Asiatic as "black", even though there's more genetic diversity in Africa than the rest of the world put together.
    - renox 2y ago
      > "Atheist" feels like such a strange and artificial category Bah, not any more that any other category: I have religious friends who are in theory from the same religion: some believe in heaven some don't, some believe in the miracles some don't, etc.. But yes, there can be atheists who believe that the earth is flat or that crystals can heal, etc.
      - Earw0rm 2y ago
        But they all identify with the same hierarchical structure to some degree, at least if we're talking about a group like Roman Catholics, Sunni Muslims etc. It gets more complicated of course where e.g. Judaism is concerned, because that's more than just a religion.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  Those stories also serve as a tapestry upon which to build tribal bonds. Beliefs are not necessary for them to serve a purpose. Just like how 90% of people who proclaim they belong to x religion don’t actually believe in stuff the religion proclaims, but it is useful for displaying tribal allegiance. In some cases, the feigning of belief in obviously false things can even help to serve as a signal for how strong your conviction is to others in a tribe. In the same vein, being a hypocrite can also be seen as a display of “look at the rules I am willing to break, and so I might be willing to break some for you”. Or at least, it shows the belief that some people are above the rules.
- Earw0rm 2y ago
  "believe" and "true" as you're using them are relatively modern, secular concepts, the idea that anything can be tested to destruction and deemed true or false, and the idea that stories are superimposed upon the world rather than being inherently part of it. If as a pre-modern person, you don't believe in a God or Gods, what fills the void? Nowadays the boundary of our knowledge stretches far beyond day to day life in many respects, but if you don't know about a round Earth, or the solar system, or how weather systems work, how else do you explain phenomena that have a material impact on your day to day life as a subsistence farmer? Pre Christianity, there wasn't really God's law and Man's law, there was just law. Even today, if you ask a highly educated religious person about their faith, you'll often find a concept of truth in some ways broader than the secular, material variety.
- lazide 2y ago
  Do you really believe in the existence of Pluto? For them, it was the same type of situation.
- peoplefromibiza 2y ago
  > did people really believe all those stories about their pantheon They did, in the same way we still believe in the horoscope, lucky numbers, miraculous diets or having success by reading the same books CEOs read. Does it really brings bad luck if 13 people sit at the same table for a dinner? And what about Friday the 13th? In many sports competitions the number 17 is removed, because, you know, better safe than sorry.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    Or in the same way that modern religious people believe the stories in their books, right? Which is to say, opinions vary, but some go right up to literalism. I’m very confused as to why folks in this thread seem to think that ancient people were any different in their religious beliefs than modern ones.

robocat 2y ago

Baysian probability is technology??? The term Bayesian derives from Thomas Bayes (1702–1761), who proved a special case of what is now called Bayes' theorem in a paper titled "An Essay Towards Solving a Problem in the Doctrine of Chances". Did the devil know about modern probability theory before we did?

_yb2s 2y ago
Bayesian probability is just a mathematical description of optimal learning process from data, e.g. common sense. It is already built into every living thing[1], because it is the best way to respond to your environment. [1] https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2017.0792 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2017.079...

bee_rider 2y ago

If a Devil showed up and could grant wishes, it would be a phenomenon in the universe we could do science at. Thing better look out, we’re going to try and capture it, squeeze the wish-juice out or whatever.

tines 2y ago
Ah, the hubris!
- bee_rider 2y ago
  Not hubris, pride—I’m the bait, I’ll draw the thing’s attention with all my sinning, you see if you can knock it out.