3 ms·

How did managers approve this and sell this up the chain to other managers?

spiritplumber 2y ago
"We have to beat the Russians to the Moon". Designs for this magnificent beast were probably started shortly into the Sputnik scare. At the time, the Soviet space program technical capabilities were overestimated by almost everyone because the Soviets managed to hit a bunch of milestones first by, essentially, being OK with taking on more risk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_crisis
- akira2501 2y ago
  "We have to exploit the resources gained in Operation Paperclip before anyone else does and we need sufficient public justification for it." It's absolutely bizarre to me to watch ancient Disney videos featuring Wernher von Braun discussing guided missiles and doing his best to downplay his German accent.
- avmich 2y ago
  > At the time, the Soviet space program technical capabilities were overestimated by almost everyone Correction: Soviet (liquid fuel) rocket engines became world state of the art in 1950-s and mostly remained as such till about 2010. Rocket engines is the technology which is enabler to most - relatively simple, looking from today - space flights of 20th century. One can't hit a bunch of milestones first just by chance - you have to have something behind it, and in addition to engines there were a lot of less-than-announced flights - remember how the back side of the Moon was successfully photographed only on the third flight and soft landing on the Moon took quite a few more attempts? One can't be about as successful as the other guy in terms of deaths in space just because of luck - corner cutters were on the both sides of the Iron Curtain, but there were also understanding that you'll lose all your advantage by just having a few more deaths. No amount of successes in unmanned flights will help (because people are much more interested in manned flights), so you just can't really allow people to die - in USSR you could also have very personal displeasures of uncomfortable size. In "History of Liquid Propellant Rocket Engines" George Sutton mentions that USSR made about 10 times more liquid fuel rocket engine designs than USA. That should bring some perspective to the matters.
  - voidUpdate 2y ago
    I think parent does have a point, A lot of the early soviet successes were hasty and just made to be first. Sputnik 1 just beeped, Laika died very early on on sputnik 2, Yuri Gagarin had very little control over what he did, he was more of a passenger. But hey, they were first https://youtu.be/rSK7rUSnFK4 https://youtu.be/rSK7rUSnFK4
    - avmich 2y ago
      I understand, but to say that Soviet tech was too overestimated is also questionable. You just can't have those firsts, or even close seconds, if you don't actually have a lot of engineering done well. Remember, USA's Explorer was 14 kg, vs. Sputnik's 83, which says about launcher capabilities. Yuri Gagarin flew to orbit some weeks before suborbital Shepard's flight, showing how human can survive reentry in a capsule - Alan Shepard didn't nearly have similar speeds. Similarly the demonstrations of capabilities of automatic probes - yes, they took lots of attempts, but still weren't much more expensive than the competitor ones. If you discount those successes, it may sound like USSR's discounting Apollo program's successes - because obviously they served little useful purpose, right?
mhh__ 2y ago
They got lucky, they clearly didn't consult enough stakeholders

"We have to beat the Russians to the Moon". Designs for this magnificent beast were probably started shortly into the Sputnik scare. At the time, the Soviet space program technical capabilities were overestimated by almost everyone because the Soviets managed to hit a bunch of milestones first by, essentially, being OK with taking on more risk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_crisis

akira2501 2y ago
"We have to exploit the resources gained in Operation Paperclip before anyone else does and we need sufficient public justification for it." It's absolutely bizarre to me to watch ancient Disney videos featuring Wernher von Braun discussing guided missiles and doing his best to downplay his German accent.
avmich 2y ago
> At the time, the Soviet space program technical capabilities were overestimated by almost everyone Correction: Soviet (liquid fuel) rocket engines became world state of the art in 1950-s and mostly remained as such till about 2010. Rocket engines is the technology which is enabler to most - relatively simple, looking from today - space flights of 20th century. One can't hit a bunch of milestones first just by chance - you have to have something behind it, and in addition to engines there were a lot of less-than-announced flights - remember how the back side of the Moon was successfully photographed only on the third flight and soft landing on the Moon took quite a few more attempts? One can't be about as successful as the other guy in terms of deaths in space just because of luck - corner cutters were on the both sides of the Iron Curtain, but there were also understanding that you'll lose all your advantage by just having a few more deaths. No amount of successes in unmanned flights will help (because people are much more interested in manned flights), so you just can't really allow people to die - in USSR you could also have very personal displeasures of uncomfortable size. In "History of Liquid Propellant Rocket Engines" George Sutton mentions that USSR made about 10 times more liquid fuel rocket engine designs than USA. That should bring some perspective to the matters.
- voidUpdate 2y ago
  I think parent does have a point, A lot of the early soviet successes were hasty and just made to be first. Sputnik 1 just beeped, Laika died very early on on sputnik 2, Yuri Gagarin had very little control over what he did, he was more of a passenger. But hey, they were first https://youtu.be/rSK7rUSnFK4 https://youtu.be/rSK7rUSnFK4
  - avmich 2y ago
    I understand, but to say that Soviet tech was too overestimated is also questionable. You just can't have those firsts, or even close seconds, if you don't actually have a lot of engineering done well. Remember, USA's Explorer was 14 kg, vs. Sputnik's 83, which says about launcher capabilities. Yuri Gagarin flew to orbit some weeks before suborbital Shepard's flight, showing how human can survive reentry in a capsule - Alan Shepard didn't nearly have similar speeds. Similarly the demonstrations of capabilities of automatic probes - yes, they took lots of attempts, but still weren't much more expensive than the competitor ones. If you discount those successes, it may sound like USSR's discounting Apollo program's successes - because obviously they served little useful purpose, right?

mhh__ 2y ago

They got lucky, they clearly didn't consult enough stakeholders