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I live in "Honda land" - the headquarters of Honda America. All their engineering is here and many of their cars and motorcycles are made here. I know several e

I live in "Honda land" - the headquarters of Honda America. All their engineering is here and many of their cars and motorcycles are made here. I know several engineers and IT folks working for Honda. Here's the thing - Honda is renowned for their small engines, including car engines. They're small engines are far more reliable than those made by Briggs & Stratton and Suzuki. Lots of manufacturers, such as Toro, use Honda engines. Even other automakers have used Honda engines in their vehicles. The other thing is Honda is a world-leading motorcycle manufacturer. Honda is the leading motorcycle manufacturer in the world and the quality and reliability of their bikes are legendary. They're recognized as a technology leader in this space and are always the first to market with new capabilities. Their sales are heads above every other motorcycle manufacturer and are increasing. Honda has a big presence in motorcycle racing and has the most Grand Prix wins of all makes. Finally, their cars have always been about engineering excellence, quality, and value - not developing new technology. In the automotive space, Honda is content to let others lead in new technology adoption. In the sea change going on in the automotive world at the moment, it may appear that Honda has no strategy. They do, it's the same strategy they've been following for decades: let others lead, they'll enhance the technology and deliver value. As far as "farting around" with hydrogen, that's a Japanese thing. They've undoubtedly received lots of government research grants to research hydrogen engines - which probably makes no sense in the small engine space in which Honda plays.

bane 2y ago
I don't fundamentally disagree with anything you've said here. In fact many of your points are the reasons we've been ride-or-die Honda for decades. Beyond anything, we prioritize reliability above almost every other metric (with reliability to mean "doesn't break at all" not "easy to repair" -- though the second meaning also applies here). But to be honest, I don't really care about their small engine prowess, or motorcycle business. I really need great, ultra-reliable, reasonably-priced, four-wheel mobility -- and thought Honda has always been somewhat conservative in their offerings in many ways, one could always think that the strategy was simply Honda wanting to make anything they put in their cars as reliable as possible. When Hyundai was putting in electric window shades and cup coolers and radars and TVs in their cars, Honda put a simple camera in the passenger-side mirror and displayed some lines to help the driver estimate distances on their own to make lane changes safer. It was simple, effective, basically bug free. I could really appreciate that sort of practical, conservative, thoughtful, engineering. But I think they're veering from that. These competencies really seem to have ossified as the company has struggled to figure out where to go next. For example, the Honda e showed really beautiful visual design, but had poor specs, and was so expensive almost nobody bought it -- it never made sense as a product and showed almost none of Honda's talent for conservative consumer vehicle design. It didn't even last 4 years as an entire vehicle line and only moved like 12,000 units globally without ever even making it to the U.S. market. It was previewed at trade shows for longer than it was an entire vehicle line. In any line-up against competitor vehicles, there was no reason to buy it, and that's what the market did. There just wasn't really any of that Honda DNA in this vehicle. The thing is, the Koreans today are also exploring LPG and Hydrogen, but they're also bringing to market a steady stream of everything else, and those offerings are competitive in the market. Toyota is also doing these things minus highly competent EVs. But here is where Honda really lost me [1]. Why would Honda, a company who's brand is "highly reliable and competent engineering" sign a strategic partnership with GM who's brand is "large and fading U.S. car company that builds cheaply built and unreliable cars that people buy because of fleet deals with car rental companies and local police forces". This just tells me that Honda: 1 - Doesn't know who they are anymore, they've lost their brand self-awareness 2 - Can't get their engineering department to figure out EV technology on their own, their engineering competency is diminishing The thing is, the Koreans have done it, from making highly unreliable mobile scrap piles 25 years ago, they now nip at the heels of Toyota and VW, while offering well designed, reasonably reliable products in basically every category (including EVs, LPG, Hydrogen, iCE, Hybrid, Plug-in Hybrid, small cars to buses) and their products are also moving in the market and finding customers. Honda needs to step it up, they no longer followers with other leading in new adoption, they're wallowing around, absolutely aimless and I hate it. 1 - https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2022/apr/0405-gmhonda.html https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/20...
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > Why would Honda, a company who's brand is "highly reliable and competent engineering" sign a strategic partnership with GM A major reason for Honda's laggardness is because it is much smaller compared to other Japanese competitors, and lacks the horizontal integration that other Japanese competitors have. In Japan, the entire economy is basically directly or indirectly owned by Mitsubishi Group, Mitsui Group, Fuyo Group, and Sumimoto Group. These are conglomerates that are so big that they de facto own entire districts and cities Honda is nowhere near the size of those Keiretsus. Toyota Motors (Toyota Group + Fuyo Group), Mitsubishi Motors (Mitsubishi Group), Nissan Motors (Fuyo Group + Renault), and Suzuki Motors (Mitsubishi Group + Toyota Group) are massive Keiretsus that are able to make strategic partnerships or have ownership stakes in other players like Idemetsu Kosan (Toyota), Panasonic (Toyota), AGC (Mitsubishi), TDK (Mitsubishi), CATL (TDK/Mitsubishi), Hitachi (Nissan/Fuyo), AESC (Nissan/Fuyo), NEC (Sumimoto), etc that puts players like Honda on the backfoot. Nissan at least made a partnership with NEC (Sumimoto Group) and AESC (formerly part of Nissan Group) for battery R&D much earlier than other players in Japan (partially thanks to help from Renault Group). Honda was just too small of a player to make strategic partnerships or gain ownership stakes in the battery supply chain, and by partnering with GM they are able to indirectly piggyback off of Samsung SDI (who are the Battery manufacturer for GM and now Honda, and were the tech partner for BYD back when it was getting started as a South Korean-Chinese JV).
  - taylodl 2y ago
    Thanks for this insight!
    - alephnerd 2y ago
      Yep! That's why Honda decided relatively early to expand abroad. It's basically an American (cars), Chinese (cars), and Indian (motorcycles and cars) automotive company for all intents and purposes, but it's China and India businesses are rapidly falling behind due to lack of technical inputs due to the reasons mentioned above.
tlavoie 2y ago
Their small engines really are great. My local fire department uses Honda models for all the small forestry-style water pumps, for example. You do have to watch out though, where some other brands have Honda-branded engines that are _not_ the same. My local small-engine mechanic derisively refers to some as "Chondas", basically meaning cheap, Chinese-built engines. When he serviced my Ryobi pressure washer, he'd had to hold the whole thing upside down to drain the old oil, because the "Honda" engine didn't come with an oil drain. Seems like quite the lack for any sort of internal combustion engine.
- taylodl 2y ago
  That's common for a lot of small engines. The location of the sump doesn't allow for the addition of a drain plug.
  - tlavoie 2y ago
    Well, for small-enough engines, that's probably fine. I mean, nobody's going to care when it's just a weed-whacker or something. Less so when it's an awkward 60 pounds or so, that still needs to be maintained. My mechanic had other complaints as well, but that one stuck from our conversation. No wonder he's got a bad back...
    - taylodl 2y ago
      I have a lawnmower and snowblower, both Toro, that have to have their oil drained this way. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
      - tlavoie 2y ago
        Haha, nice.

bane 2y ago

I don't fundamentally disagree with anything you've said here. In fact many of your points are the reasons we've been ride-or-die Honda for decades. Beyond anything, we prioritize reliability above almost every other metric (with reliability to mean "doesn't break at all" not "easy to repair" -- though the second meaning also applies here). But to be honest, I don't really care about their small engine prowess, or motorcycle business. I really need great, ultra-reliable, reasonably-priced, four-wheel mobility -- and thought Honda has always been somewhat conservative in their offerings in many ways, one could always think that the strategy was simply Honda wanting to make anything they put in their cars as reliable as possible. When Hyundai was putting in electric window shades and cup coolers and radars and TVs in their cars, Honda put a simple camera in the passenger-side mirror and displayed some lines to help the driver estimate distances on their own to make lane changes safer. It was simple, effective, basically bug free. I could really appreciate that sort of practical, conservative, thoughtful, engineering. But I think they're veering from that. These competencies really seem to have ossified as the company has struggled to figure out where to go next. For example, the Honda e showed really beautiful visual design, but had poor specs, and was so expensive almost nobody bought it -- it never made sense as a product and showed almost none of Honda's talent for conservative consumer vehicle design. It didn't even last 4 years as an entire vehicle line and only moved like 12,000 units globally without ever even making it to the U.S. market. It was previewed at trade shows for longer than it was an entire vehicle line. In any line-up against competitor vehicles, there was no reason to buy it, and that's what the market did. There just wasn't really any of that Honda DNA in this vehicle. The thing is, the Koreans today are also exploring LPG and Hydrogen, but they're also bringing to market a steady stream of everything else, and those offerings are competitive in the market. Toyota is also doing these things minus highly competent EVs. But here is where Honda really lost me [1]. Why would Honda, a company who's brand is "highly reliable and competent engineering" sign a strategic partnership with GM who's brand is "large and fading U.S. car company that builds cheaply built and unreliable cars that people buy because of fleet deals with car rental companies and local police forces". This just tells me that Honda: 1 - Doesn't know who they are anymore, they've lost their brand self-awareness 2 - Can't get their engineering department to figure out EV technology on their own, their engineering competency is diminishing The thing is, the Koreans have done it, from making highly unreliable mobile scrap piles 25 years ago, they now nip at the heels of Toyota and VW, while offering well designed, reasonably reliable products in basically every category (including EVs, LPG, Hydrogen, iCE, Hybrid, Plug-in Hybrid, small cars to buses) and their products are also moving in the market and finding customers. Honda needs to step it up, they no longer followers with other leading in new adoption, they're wallowing around, absolutely aimless and I hate it. 1 - https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2022/apr/0405-gmhonda.html https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/20...

alephnerd 2y ago
> Why would Honda, a company who's brand is "highly reliable and competent engineering" sign a strategic partnership with GM A major reason for Honda's laggardness is because it is much smaller compared to other Japanese competitors, and lacks the horizontal integration that other Japanese competitors have. In Japan, the entire economy is basically directly or indirectly owned by Mitsubishi Group, Mitsui Group, Fuyo Group, and Sumimoto Group. These are conglomerates that are so big that they de facto own entire districts and cities Honda is nowhere near the size of those Keiretsus. Toyota Motors (Toyota Group + Fuyo Group), Mitsubishi Motors (Mitsubishi Group), Nissan Motors (Fuyo Group + Renault), and Suzuki Motors (Mitsubishi Group + Toyota Group) are massive Keiretsus that are able to make strategic partnerships or have ownership stakes in other players like Idemetsu Kosan (Toyota), Panasonic (Toyota), AGC (Mitsubishi), TDK (Mitsubishi), CATL (TDK/Mitsubishi), Hitachi (Nissan/Fuyo), AESC (Nissan/Fuyo), NEC (Sumimoto), etc that puts players like Honda on the backfoot. Nissan at least made a partnership with NEC (Sumimoto Group) and AESC (formerly part of Nissan Group) for battery R&D much earlier than other players in Japan (partially thanks to help from Renault Group). Honda was just too small of a player to make strategic partnerships or gain ownership stakes in the battery supply chain, and by partnering with GM they are able to indirectly piggyback off of Samsung SDI (who are the Battery manufacturer for GM and now Honda, and were the tech partner for BYD back when it was getting started as a South Korean-Chinese JV).
- taylodl 2y ago
  Thanks for this insight!
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    Yep! That's why Honda decided relatively early to expand abroad. It's basically an American (cars), Chinese (cars), and Indian (motorcycles and cars) automotive company for all intents and purposes, but it's China and India businesses are rapidly falling behind due to lack of technical inputs due to the reasons mentioned above.

tlavoie 2y ago

Their small engines really are great. My local fire department uses Honda models for all the small forestry-style water pumps, for example. You do have to watch out though, where some other brands have Honda-branded engines that are _not_ the same. My local small-engine mechanic derisively refers to some as "Chondas", basically meaning cheap, Chinese-built engines. When he serviced my Ryobi pressure washer, he'd had to hold the whole thing upside down to drain the old oil, because the "Honda" engine didn't come with an oil drain. Seems like quite the lack for any sort of internal combustion engine.

taylodl 2y ago
That's common for a lot of small engines. The location of the sump doesn't allow for the addition of a drain plug.
- tlavoie 2y ago
  Well, for small-enough engines, that's probably fine. I mean, nobody's going to care when it's just a weed-whacker or something. Less so when it's an awkward 60 pounds or so, that still needs to be maintained. My mechanic had other complaints as well, but that one stuck from our conversation. No wonder he's got a bad back...
  - taylodl 2y ago
    I have a lawnmower and snowblower, both Toro, that have to have their oil drained this way. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    - tlavoie 2y ago
      Haha, nice.