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I'm not a Toyota fan by any stretch, the last Toyota I owned was over 20 years ago. We've been ride or die Honda vehicle appliances since then as an entire fami

by bane 2y ago

I'm not a Toyota fan by any stretch, the last Toyota I owned was over 20 years ago. We've been ride or die Honda vehicle appliances since then as an entire family. But Honda's offerings just aren't doing it for us anymore. It seems like the entire industry is moving past them with the company being dragged along with: - very subpar offerings in the EV space (I mean the Honda e, really?) - almost no plug-in hybrids - hybrid tech that hasn't really advanced in a decade - a bunch of effort spent farting around with LPG and hydrogen vehicles which are going to go approximately nowhere as a market - a completely empty small vehicle category (in the U.S.), I'd even be compelled to maybe buy an iCE fit/jazz just for the convenience for the semi-urban area I live in We can't figure them out as a company anymore and they seem to have no strategy. At the moment, if we had to go buy a car today, I'd hit the Toyota dealerships for a Prius Prime, and if they were out of stock probably go hit the Hyundai dealerships for a hybrid or an EV. If Hyundai ever tops Toyota for general reliability, I'm going there first, that's a company attacking on all fronts.

taylodl 2y ago
I live in "Honda land" - the headquarters of Honda America. All their engineering is here and many of their cars and motorcycles are made here. I know several engineers and IT folks working for Honda. Here's the thing - Honda is renowned for their small engines, including car engines. They're small engines are far more reliable than those made by Briggs & Stratton and Suzuki. Lots of manufacturers, such as Toro, use Honda engines. Even other automakers have used Honda engines in their vehicles. The other thing is Honda is a world-leading motorcycle manufacturer. Honda is the leading motorcycle manufacturer in the world and the quality and reliability of their bikes are legendary. They're recognized as a technology leader in this space and are always the first to market with new capabilities. Their sales are heads above every other motorcycle manufacturer and are increasing. Honda has a big presence in motorcycle racing and has the most Grand Prix wins of all makes. Finally, their cars have always been about engineering excellence, quality, and value - not developing new technology. In the automotive space, Honda is content to let others lead in new technology adoption. In the sea change going on in the automotive world at the moment, it may appear that Honda has no strategy. They do, it's the same strategy they've been following for decades: let others lead, they'll enhance the technology and deliver value. As far as "farting around" with hydrogen, that's a Japanese thing. They've undoubtedly received lots of government research grants to research hydrogen engines - which probably makes no sense in the small engine space in which Honda plays.
- bane 2y ago
  I don't fundamentally disagree with anything you've said here. In fact many of your points are the reasons we've been ride-or-die Honda for decades. Beyond anything, we prioritize reliability above almost every other metric (with reliability to mean "doesn't break at all" not "easy to repair" -- though the second meaning also applies here). But to be honest, I don't really care about their small engine prowess, or motorcycle business. I really need great, ultra-reliable, reasonably-priced, four-wheel mobility -- and thought Honda has always been somewhat conservative in their offerings in many ways, one could always think that the strategy was simply Honda wanting to make anything they put in their cars as reliable as possible. When Hyundai was putting in electric window shades and cup coolers and radars and TVs in their cars, Honda put a simple camera in the passenger-side mirror and displayed some lines to help the driver estimate distances on their own to make lane changes safer. It was simple, effective, basically bug free. I could really appreciate that sort of practical, conservative, thoughtful, engineering. But I think they're veering from that. These competencies really seem to have ossified as the company has struggled to figure out where to go next. For example, the Honda e showed really beautiful visual design, but had poor specs, and was so expensive almost nobody bought it -- it never made sense as a product and showed almost none of Honda's talent for conservative consumer vehicle design. It didn't even last 4 years as an entire vehicle line and only moved like 12,000 units globally without ever even making it to the U.S. market. It was previewed at trade shows for longer than it was an entire vehicle line. In any line-up against competitor vehicles, there was no reason to buy it, and that's what the market did. There just wasn't really any of that Honda DNA in this vehicle. The thing is, the Koreans today are also exploring LPG and Hydrogen, but they're also bringing to market a steady stream of everything else, and those offerings are competitive in the market. Toyota is also doing these things minus highly competent EVs. But here is where Honda really lost me [1]. Why would Honda, a company who's brand is "highly reliable and competent engineering" sign a strategic partnership with GM who's brand is "large and fading U.S. car company that builds cheaply built and unreliable cars that people buy because of fleet deals with car rental companies and local police forces". This just tells me that Honda: 1 - Doesn't know who they are anymore, they've lost their brand self-awareness 2 - Can't get their engineering department to figure out EV technology on their own, their engineering competency is diminishing The thing is, the Koreans have done it, from making highly unreliable mobile scrap piles 25 years ago, they now nip at the heels of Toyota and VW, while offering well designed, reasonably reliable products in basically every category (including EVs, LPG, Hydrogen, iCE, Hybrid, Plug-in Hybrid, small cars to buses) and their products are also moving in the market and finding customers. Honda needs to step it up, they no longer followers with other leading in new adoption, they're wallowing around, absolutely aimless and I hate it. 1 - https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2022/apr/0405-gmhonda.html https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/20...

by bane 2y ago

taylodl 2y ago

I live in "Honda land" - the headquarters of Honda America. All their engineering is here and many of their cars and motorcycles are made here. I know several engineers and IT folks working for Honda. Here's the thing - Honda is renowned for their small engines, including car engines. They're small engines are far more reliable than those made by Briggs & Stratton and Suzuki. Lots of manufacturers, such as Toro, use Honda engines. Even other automakers have used Honda engines in their vehicles. The other thing is Honda is a world-leading motorcycle manufacturer. Honda is the leading motorcycle manufacturer in the world and the quality and reliability of their bikes are legendary. They're recognized as a technology leader in this space and are always the first to market with new capabilities. Their sales are heads above every other motorcycle manufacturer and are increasing. Honda has a big presence in motorcycle racing and has the most Grand Prix wins of all makes. Finally, their cars have always been about engineering excellence, quality, and value - not developing new technology. In the automotive space, Honda is content to let others lead in new technology adoption. In the sea change going on in the automotive world at the moment, it may appear that Honda has no strategy. They do, it's the same strategy they've been following for decades: let others lead, they'll enhance the technology and deliver value. As far as "farting around" with hydrogen, that's a Japanese thing. They've undoubtedly received lots of government research grants to research hydrogen engines - which probably makes no sense in the small engine space in which Honda plays.

bane 2y ago
I don't fundamentally disagree with anything you've said here. In fact many of your points are the reasons we've been ride-or-die Honda for decades. Beyond anything, we prioritize reliability above almost every other metric (with reliability to mean "doesn't break at all" not "easy to repair" -- though the second meaning also applies here). But to be honest, I don't really care about their small engine prowess, or motorcycle business. I really need great, ultra-reliable, reasonably-priced, four-wheel mobility -- and thought Honda has always been somewhat conservative in their offerings in many ways, one could always think that the strategy was simply Honda wanting to make anything they put in their cars as reliable as possible. When Hyundai was putting in electric window shades and cup coolers and radars and TVs in their cars, Honda put a simple camera in the passenger-side mirror and displayed some lines to help the driver estimate distances on their own to make lane changes safer. It was simple, effective, basically bug free. I could really appreciate that sort of practical, conservative, thoughtful, engineering. But I think they're veering from that. These competencies really seem to have ossified as the company has struggled to figure out where to go next. For example, the Honda e showed really beautiful visual design, but had poor specs, and was so expensive almost nobody bought it -- it never made sense as a product and showed almost none of Honda's talent for conservative consumer vehicle design. It didn't even last 4 years as an entire vehicle line and only moved like 12,000 units globally without ever even making it to the U.S. market. It was previewed at trade shows for longer than it was an entire vehicle line. In any line-up against competitor vehicles, there was no reason to buy it, and that's what the market did. There just wasn't really any of that Honda DNA in this vehicle. The thing is, the Koreans today are also exploring LPG and Hydrogen, but they're also bringing to market a steady stream of everything else, and those offerings are competitive in the market. Toyota is also doing these things minus highly competent EVs. But here is where Honda really lost me [1]. Why would Honda, a company who's brand is "highly reliable and competent engineering" sign a strategic partnership with GM who's brand is "large and fading U.S. car company that builds cheaply built and unreliable cars that people buy because of fleet deals with car rental companies and local police forces". This just tells me that Honda: 1 - Doesn't know who they are anymore, they've lost their brand self-awareness 2 - Can't get their engineering department to figure out EV technology on their own, their engineering competency is diminishing The thing is, the Koreans have done it, from making highly unreliable mobile scrap piles 25 years ago, they now nip at the heels of Toyota and VW, while offering well designed, reasonably reliable products in basically every category (including EVs, LPG, Hydrogen, iCE, Hybrid, Plug-in Hybrid, small cars to buses) and their products are also moving in the market and finding customers. Honda needs to step it up, they no longer followers with other leading in new adoption, they're wallowing around, absolutely aimless and I hate it. 1 - https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2022/apr/0405-gmhonda.html https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/20...