4 ms·

OP complimented the hybrid strategy and your criticism is off an EV.

gambiting 2y ago
Sorry maybe my point isn't clear - Toyota has literally 30 years of experience building automotive EV motors(for their hybrid cars) and their first real EV has half the efficiency of a Tesla. So where is that 30 years of experience that Toyota has? And just to go back to hybrids - Toyota was such a pioneer in what we call "mild" hybrids nowadays, but they were super late on the PHEV side, for years you could buy PHEVs from different manufacturers before Toyota finally made one.
- nottorp 2y ago
  Well, just a data point: I'll probably need to get a new car in the next 2 years, I've been looking at EVs and PHEVs and they simply don't make sense for my usage. Maybe Toyota is trying to sell to me not to you...
  - gambiting 2y ago
    That's fine, but the point is that they make hybrids and EVs so I don't see why we shouldn't discuss their engineering details regardless of whether me and you are personally interested in buying them.
    - nottorp 2y ago
      Mm can we try some other manufacturer of EVs vs Toyota? Teslas are so designed in California and badly manufactured that it's too bad about that efficient power train....
- jason-phillips 2y ago
  You may be building a straw man. None of your criticisms may be valid as they attempt to discredit Toyota for strategic decisions it didn't make, precisely because these decisions would not align with its operating philosophy which has allowed them to become one of the most valuable brands and emulated models in history.
  - gambiting 2y ago
    You might be right of course, I've just replied to a comment which was giving such an unconditional praise to Toyota it read almost like sarcasm - by all accounts they were super late with key technologies when it comes to hybrids, which is just weird given their very long experience building cars like the Prius. The EV point was purely about the fact that IMHO their first EV should have been super strong given their experience and it's just.....awfully unerwhelming. I agree however that this lateness probably didn't hurt their brand that much though, and long long term they will be fine.
- newsclues 2y ago
  They have decades experience building hybrids and have chosen the hybrid is best strategy And you then complain their EV isn’t as good as the hybrids they have been building.
  - gambiting 2y ago
    BEVs and hybrids use the same electric motor technology. All I'm saying is that it's shocking(to me anyway) that Toyota spent 30 years making millions of them and then they can't match half the efficiency of a Tesla, that's just weird and makes you wonder where is all that engineering experience gone.
- floxy 2y ago
  >their first real EV has half the efficiency of a Tesla. Which model is Toyota's first real EV? The BZ4X efficiency (131 city/107 hwy MPGe), while less than the Model 3 (138 city/126 hwy MPGe), isn't half the efficiency. https://www.truecar.com/compare/tesla-model-3-vs-toyota-bz4x/ https://www.truecar.com/compare/tesla-model-3-vs-toyota-bz4x...
  - gambiting 2y ago
    Top Gear averaged 2.7 miles/kWh over 10k miles[0], while a Tesla Model 3 and Y can easily do 4-5 miles/kWh in real life tests. TBF 2.7 is abysmal in any car, that's numbers from a Q8 E-Tron, a big heavy SUV, for a small crossover that's just not ok. [0] https://www.topgear.com/long-term-car-reviews/toyota/bz4x/160kw-vision-714kwh-5dr-auto-awd-11kw/report-6 https://www.topgear.com/long-term-car-reviews/toyota/bz4x/16...
    - floxy 2y ago
      Thanks, that's very interesting. Does Top Gear have a similar long term review for a Tesla model (with the average efficiency calculated over something like the 10,000 miles in the Toyota review and presumably with the same group of drivers/environmental conditions/mix of highway/city driving)? You are correct that the 2.7 miles/kwh is low. But I suppose it isn't too far off the EPA estimate of 107 MPGe (highway rating), which would be 3.175 miles/kwh.
    - floxy 2y ago
      Here's a pretty scathing mechanic's review of the BZ4X: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2tzln6UD-Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2tzln6UD-Q
jason-phillips 2y ago
> OP complimented the hybrid and your criticism pertains to an EV. Also, a blind spot for the long game.

Sorry maybe my point isn't clear - Toyota has literally 30 years of experience building automotive EV motors(for their hybrid cars) and their first real EV has half the efficiency of a Tesla. So where is that 30 years of experience that Toyota has? And just to go back to hybrids - Toyota was such a pioneer in what we call "mild" hybrids nowadays, but they were super late on the PHEV side, for years you could buy PHEVs from different manufacturers before Toyota finally made one.

nottorp 2y ago
Well, just a data point: I'll probably need to get a new car in the next 2 years, I've been looking at EVs and PHEVs and they simply don't make sense for my usage. Maybe Toyota is trying to sell to me not to you...
- gambiting 2y ago
  That's fine, but the point is that they make hybrids and EVs so I don't see why we shouldn't discuss their engineering details regardless of whether me and you are personally interested in buying them.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    Mm can we try some other manufacturer of EVs vs Toyota? Teslas are so designed in California and badly manufactured that it's too bad about that efficient power train....
jason-phillips 2y ago
You may be building a straw man. None of your criticisms may be valid as they attempt to discredit Toyota for strategic decisions it didn't make, precisely because these decisions would not align with its operating philosophy which has allowed them to become one of the most valuable brands and emulated models in history.
- gambiting 2y ago
  You might be right of course, I've just replied to a comment which was giving such an unconditional praise to Toyota it read almost like sarcasm - by all accounts they were super late with key technologies when it comes to hybrids, which is just weird given their very long experience building cars like the Prius. The EV point was purely about the fact that IMHO their first EV should have been super strong given their experience and it's just.....awfully unerwhelming. I agree however that this lateness probably didn't hurt their brand that much though, and long long term they will be fine.
newsclues 2y ago
They have decades experience building hybrids and have chosen the hybrid is best strategy And you then complain their EV isn’t as good as the hybrids they have been building.
- gambiting 2y ago
  BEVs and hybrids use the same electric motor technology. All I'm saying is that it's shocking(to me anyway) that Toyota spent 30 years making millions of them and then they can't match half the efficiency of a Tesla, that's just weird and makes you wonder where is all that engineering experience gone.
floxy 2y ago
>their first real EV has half the efficiency of a Tesla. Which model is Toyota's first real EV? The BZ4X efficiency (131 city/107 hwy MPGe), while less than the Model 3 (138 city/126 hwy MPGe), isn't half the efficiency. https://www.truecar.com/compare/tesla-model-3-vs-toyota-bz4x/ https://www.truecar.com/compare/tesla-model-3-vs-toyota-bz4x...
- gambiting 2y ago
  Top Gear averaged 2.7 miles/kWh over 10k miles[0], while a Tesla Model 3 and Y can easily do 4-5 miles/kWh in real life tests. TBF 2.7 is abysmal in any car, that's numbers from a Q8 E-Tron, a big heavy SUV, for a small crossover that's just not ok. [0] https://www.topgear.com/long-term-car-reviews/toyota/bz4x/160kw-vision-714kwh-5dr-auto-awd-11kw/report-6 https://www.topgear.com/long-term-car-reviews/toyota/bz4x/16...
  - floxy 2y ago
    Thanks, that's very interesting. Does Top Gear have a similar long term review for a Tesla model (with the average efficiency calculated over something like the 10,000 miles in the Toyota review and presumably with the same group of drivers/environmental conditions/mix of highway/city driving)? You are correct that the 2.7 miles/kwh is low. But I suppose it isn't too far off the EPA estimate of 107 MPGe (highway rating), which would be 3.175 miles/kwh.
  - floxy 2y ago
    Here's a pretty scathing mechanic's review of the BZ4X: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2tzln6UD-Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2tzln6UD-Q

jason-phillips 2y ago

> OP complimented the hybrid and your criticism pertains to an EV. Also, a blind spot for the long game.