6 ms·

> Tweet about opposing war in ukraine arguing that NATO is outdated and not in the interest of Ukrainians? Oh pay no attention to him -- he is on the communist

• macintux 2y ago
  Why do people who oppose the war in Ukraine feel it's Ukraine's responsibility to roll over and die, instead of Russia's responsibility to turn around and go home?
  • DSingularity 2y ago
    Is that truly what people who oppose the war believe? Or is that an easy strawman for you to dismiss the anti-war crowd in the eyes of those who dont know the history of this conflict?
    • deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    • Fokamul 2y ago
      [flagged]
      • snapcaster 2y ago
        "only good Russians are dead Russians" It's really upsetting to hear something so dehumanizing, have you ever interacted with russian people? would you say this about any other massive group of people?
        • KptMarchewa 2y ago
          [flagged]
      • deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      • deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    • kspacewalk2 2y ago
      What do people like you mean by "anti-war", exactly? Do you expect Ukraine to stop trying to liberate its people from a genocidal fascist invader who is holding them hostage? Do you want Ukraine to give up? Because, like, I suppose surrendering and being marched to the basement for your 9 grams of lead (that is, unless you accept being ethnically cleansed off your land and becoming a refugee) - well that also ends the war.
      • DSingularity 2y ago
        Do you deny that Ukraine has ethnic Russians in its territory? Do you deny that Ukraine has been crushing those Russians because of their dissent and their desire for self-determination? I don’t expect them to stop fighting invaders. But what I do expect is to engage with their people and their neighbors on these issues in hopes of avoiding war and maintaining territorial integrity. They didn’t. Why I wonder?
        • aguaviva 2y ago
          Do you deny that Ukraine has ethnic Russians in its territory? This is a lot like asking, in regard to events of August 1939 -- "Do you deny that Poland has ethnic Germans in it territory"? Of course it did, and in fact (though this is largely forgotten) Poland was abusing its German population somewhat (far more than anything Ukraine has ever done to its Russian-speaking population). But Hitler's claims of the extent of such abuses were wildly exaggerated and overdrawn. Just as the depiction above of Ukraine "crushing those Russians because of their dissent" (without providing specifics) is wildly out of touch with reality. And his stated rationale of the need to to start a full-scale war in order "protect" this population was a big lie of course, created specifically to appeal to people gullible enough to believe such things. Putin's claims of the need to "protect" the Russian-speaking population of Ukraine are equally baseless, and are designed with a similar intent in mind. But what I do expect is to engage with their people and their neighbors on these issues in hopes of avoiding war and maintaining territorial integrity. Ukraine did engage with Russia on the issues -- they just weren't willing to bend over and give Putin everything he wanted. More specifically it definitely sounds like you were expecting the Ukrainians to agree to permanent large-scale territorial concessions. Because since 2014, that's been the bare minimum of Russia's terms for "avoiding war".
    • attentive 2y ago
      That's exactly what russia lovers want. "Just stop fighting invading forces" is as amoral as it gets.
      • DSingularity 2y ago
        Ah, the labels come again! Can respond so we label!
  • SXX 2y ago
    This is usual tactics of Putins' shills. They all very much against war, but it's certainly must be stopped as is on the current frontline. So Ukraine not controlling part of it's territories and can't get into NATO, so Putin can prepare better for next invasion. Unfortunately EU and US governments are not much better since they all put dumb limits on weapons usage and never supplied Ukraine enough weapons to actually get any superiority.
• DSingularity 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • objectivetruth 2y ago
    [dead]
  • hcfman 2y ago
    A decade ? That's optimistic.
  • hcfman 2y ago
    Those 10's of billions are billions that will never be used for fighting global warming, so the whole planet looses on wars.
    • DSingularity 2y ago
      Sure. Or world hunger. Or building more schools and infrastructure in the developing world. Or generally investing in making technology accessible to improve outcomes for people.
  • actionfromafar 2y ago
    What good could come out of saying "Oh, you are playing the nuke card. Well, take whatever you want then, I'm so sorry." ? What's to say Russia won't wave the nuke card again, and again, if it worked the first time? Also, do you ascribe any agency to the people of Ukraine? If they want to resist Russia, let them, I say. And of course it's not out of altruism. (Well, some of the icing on the cake may be.) It's because Russia is changing the status quo. That's a threat to the US. (And many other countries!)
    • DSingularity 2y ago
      Yeah but I don’t think that it is so simple. I would think nations are sufficiently deterred from establishing precedents which can later be used on them. Does Russia want to legitimize a recipe that could be used by Japan to snatch Russian territory? I don’t see them waving the Nuke card at all. Look: the Russian invasion sucks for everybody involved and in particular the Russian and Ukrainian civilians. War might be good for many things but at the very least it is not obviously good for politics. I think it’s not controversial to expect that Russian leadership would have much preferred to develop influence through significant mutually beneficial relations with its neighbors. What is to be done however if at some point a third party with infinite resources is those neighbors to an impasse on topics of national security to Russia? And after this those third parties start arming those neighbors with advanced weapon systems? Exactly what do you expect the US would do in a similar situation? People wishing that the war would stop are not simply siding with an invader or a bully. They are being practical and recognizing a legitimate grievance of the Russians. Unless your position is that we live in a world where nations are unequal wrt security expectations you have to acknowledge the reality that the Russians have a legitimate claim to be upset about.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]