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Mini imported Japanese vehicles may soon be banned on Massachusetts roads

48 points by mjbellantoni 2y ago

themaninthedark 2y ago
Given the reasoning for refusal is that the vehicles don't meet safety standards, I wonder if they will stop registering older American vehicles as well for lack of safety standards but also for emissions?
- sidewndr46 2y ago
  Yes, that is the objective of the parties involved. From a manufacturer's standpoint, the worse thing that ever happened was the secondary market for vehicles.
- spdgg 2y ago
  I find it funny that the safety standards are for the drivers, not everyone around them. Small trucks = not safe Massive modern trucks killing cyclists and pedestrians = very safe! (For the driver)
  - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
    A small truck has just as much possibility to kill as a big truck, and in fact due to the smaller application of similar forces its more likely to seriously cripple you, even if said hit was non-fatal. While I’m all for reducing the size of cars in USA, pretending that ”massive modern trucks” are the only ones that kill is just wrong.
    - ejstronge 2y ago
      > A small truck has just as much possibility to kill as a big truck, and in fact due to the smaller application of similar forces its more likely to seriously cripple you, even if said hit was non-fatal. > While I’m all for reducing the size of cars in USA, pretending that ”massive modern trucks” are the only ones that kill is just wrong. The argument is that a larger truck is more likely to kill - instead of resulting in injuries that can be treated. There is evidence for this.
      - capitainenemo 2y ago
        Yes, and it's not just mass, it's also hood height. https://ssti.us/2024/01/29/vehicle-hoods-are-now-four-inches-taller-and-22-percent-more-deadly-for-pedestrians/ https://ssti.us/2024/01/29/vehicle-hoods-are-now-four-inches...
      - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
        There is also very obvious evidence that regardless of size you are overwhelmingly likely to die when hit by a vehicle and that in fact due to the application of force via the hood even in non-fatal crashes smaller vehicles have a higher chance to cripple you for life. I really shouldn’t be surprised that saying ‘getting hit by a car, regardless of size, is deadly’ on HN.
    - nkrisc 2y ago
      You’ve simply got it backwards. More massive trucks with higher top speeds are more dangerous. An F-150 at 30mph is more dangerous than a Honda Fit at 30 mph.
      - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
        I don’t believe I ever denied how dangerous large vehicles are? Although I see a lot of denial in the replies of the danger of smaller vehicles.
        nkrisc 2y ago
        But what’s your point then? Yes, of course all vehicles are dangerous to some degree. But some are much more dangerous than others. Smaller, lighter vehicles are less dangerous through simply the laws of physics.
    - sundaeofshock 2y ago
      “Large SUVs and pickup trucks are, unsurprisingly, more likely than smaller cars to injure or kill pedestrians due to their greater weight and taller front ends.” https://towardsdatascience.com/suvs-are-killing-people-de6ce08bac3d#:~:text=Several%20factors%20contribute%20to%20these,weight%20and%20taller%20front%20ends https://towardsdatascience.com/suvs-are-killing-people-de6ce....
    - skeaker 2y ago
      Not sure how you can come to this conclusion. Seems obviously false by intuition, napkin math, and a cursory search.
      - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
        The only way you can somehow NOT come to this conclusion is by denying that all vehicles, big or small, are dangerous and fooling yourself into thinking that there is some magical size where a multi-ton object going at 60MPH is somehow not a lethal force.
        skeaker 2y ago
        I mean it's just momentum = mass*velocity. Something with more mass inherently has more momentum, and will therefore be harder to stop in an emergency/hit harder when it crashes. That's obviously more dangerous no matter how you look at it. A penny going at 60 MPH at your head probably won't kill you but a truck will. A penny going 1000 MPH will probably kill you, but I wouldn't call a penny as dangerous as a truck even though they're both potentially lethal.
- _yb2s 2y ago
  It makes sense to regulate what can be sold new, while grandfathering in what was sold legally in the past. People won’t stand for the government jerking people around and saying “this vehicle you purchased legally is now illegal and can’t be driven or sold, and you need to buy another with your own money… but no guarantees we won’t immediately ban the new one also.” Cars have a finite life span unless restored at great expense, so the problem takes care of itself without overbearing laws that would be seen as the government stealing peoples personal property. Appreciating classic cars is also a mainstay of American culture- with most towns having classic car shows, and things like discounted registration and insurance for antique cars.
  - themaninthedark 2y ago
    From the way I read the article, it appears to me that the vehicle registration must be renewed: >But Massachusetts is now pointing out that kei trucks and vans don’t meet federal safety standards and recently included them on a list of vehicles that can’t be registered in the state. The state is now reconsidering that decision, leaving kei truck owners wondering whether they’ll be able to keep driving these vehicles. >All existing unexpired registrations for Kei trucks and vans will remain active as the RMV works to review and assess industry standards related to Kei mini trucks and develop an updated policy addressing the registration of these vehicles. From: https://www.mass.gov/info-details/vehicles-that-cannot-be-registeredtitled-in-massachusetts#:~:text=Mini%20Kei%20Trucks%20and%20Vans,-A%20Kei%20class&text=The%20Massachusetts%20RMV%2C%20under%20its,for%20registration%20of%20Kei%20trucks https://www.mass.gov/info-details/vehicles-that-cannot-be-re.... So depending on how registrations in MA work and if they expire, they will be pulling the rug out from under the owners. Related, if we are worried about crash safety(ostentatiously of the operator and passengers) why does MA still allow motorcycles?
jszymborski 2y ago
I really don't get the NA car market. There is a demand for small kei car/trucks as is natural with cities growing and parking dwindling. Yet even compacts are disappearing. My kingdom for an EV compact that is compact. Even the Fiat 500s and Mini Coops feel like they get bigger each year.
- sidewndr46 2y ago
  Fuel economy standards, emissions standards, safety standards, & profit margins. If you want to sell cars and make money, compacts are not where it is at.
  - khafra 2y ago
    Compacts, subcompacts, and microcompacts are very popular in Europe. Is this because Europe has fewer and less restrictive standards for fuel economy, emissions, and safety? I am not an automotive policy expert, but I feel like Europe tends to regulate more than the US does.
    - PetitPrince 2y ago
      One factor to take into account is that streets and roads are narrower (or at least feels narrower). I would be very uncomfortable driving those huge SUV where I live.
      - gedy 2y ago
        Yeah my expat friend owns a midsized (for the US) SUV in Spain, and she finds it incredibly difficult to use in the city she lives in due to the narrow streets + sidewalk cafes.
    - sidewndr46 2y ago
      No, it's because the US has a different set of regulations entirely.
    - troupo 2y ago
reedf1 2y ago
Many Japanese vehicles are banned, especially light trucks, because they are too competitive. They are often banned for trumped up reasons, mostly to protect local competition.
- infecto 2y ago
  This sounds like a massive conspiracy if I have ever heard one. Evidence would be helpful. Foreign markets are often very different and those vehicles don't pass safety in the US. My favorite was the death traps that Toyota Mexico made up until a couple years ago. Brand new vehicle but absolute death trap.
  - Havoc 2y ago
    Not OP but BYD cars are being kept out via policy so don’t think it’s that far fetched. Certainly not conspiracy territory https://www.vox.com/climate/2024/3/4/24087919/biden-tariff-chinese-ev-byd-battery-detroit https://www.vox.com/climate/2024/3/4/24087919/biden-tariff-c...
    - infecto 2y ago
      Those are not "trumped" up reasons those. That is an explicit ban that the US makes.
  - reverius42 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax > The Chicken tax is a 25 percent tariff on light trucks (and originally on potato starch, dextrin, and brandy) imposed in 1964 by the United States under President Lyndon B. Johnson in response to tariffs placed by France and West Germany on importation of U.S. chicken. > Eventually, the tariffs on potato starch, dextrin, and brandy were lifted,[4] but since 1964 this form of protectionism has remained in place to give US domestic automakers an advantage over imported competitors.
    - infecto 2y ago
EligibleDecoy 2y ago
The hypocrisy is that if safety was the overall concern, then motorcycles would have been banned a long time ago (and I say this as someone who enjoys riding my motorcycle). I think the actual problem is that when compared to other cars in their category these kei trucks do have abysmal safety standards such as no airbags or crumple zones. Which is because there isn’t a mini truck category in the US. Basically all pick up trucks are the same category. The point about older cars still on the road is a valid point though, cars made before 1998 didn’t require airbags so if they can still be registered then the kei trucks should too.
- petesergeant 2y ago
  I assume governance is the art of the possible, and banning motorbikes is impossible for political reasons, where banning hobby vehicles looks pretty straight-forward.
  - loloquwowndueo 2y ago
    Motorbikes are hobby vehicles.
    - short_sells_poo 2y ago
      Not in a city they aren't. They are an excellent commuting tool that offers much of the flexibility of a car for a fraction of the cost and much better commute time.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - cuddlyogre 2y ago
        And several times the noise and pollution.
        digdugdirk 2y ago
tsuru 2y ago
Japan has different standards and driving environment around kei cars (I'm going to use K-car going forward). - Their top speed limit even on highways is 100kmh / 60mph - K-cars have yellow license plates and yellow license plates are not allowed on highways I have a memory of seeing one of the infamous white K-trucks on an interstate in Nashville and was gobsmacked. These cars are not rated for highway / interstates in Japan, let alone the U.S. I'm not sure if the U.S. has a similar visible markings for farm vehicles to allow K-cars city road travel and deny interstate travel. If not, I agree they should be banned until some sort of classification is made and driver culture / knowledge is propagated.
- filmor 2y ago
  Where does it say that K-cars are not allowed on highways? I'm certain that I saw quite a few, and I can find no source that says otherwise.
  - minebreaker 2y ago
    Yes, kei cars are sure allowed to drive on highways. > Their top speed limit even on highways is 100kmh That's an old standard. They're allowed to go up to 120km/h on some roads.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
andrewgilmartin 2y ago
And yet low-speed vehicles are allowed.... Low-speed vehicles are coming to Rhode Island streets https://turnto10.com/news/local/low-speed-vehicles-are-coming-to-rhode-island-streets-southern-new-england-wareham-massachusetts-june-25-2024 https://turnto10.com/news/local/low-speed-vehicles-are-comin...
gnabgib 2y ago
Related Massachusetts 'Reviewing' Kei Car Ban After Uproar over Canceled Registrations (41 points, 8 days ago, 52 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41180154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41180154

48 points by mjbellantoni 2y ago

Given the reasoning for refusal is that the vehicles don't meet safety standards, I wonder if they will stop registering older American vehicles as well for lack of safety standards but also for emissions?

sidewndr46 2y ago
Yes, that is the objective of the parties involved. From a manufacturer's standpoint, the worse thing that ever happened was the secondary market for vehicles.
spdgg 2y ago
I find it funny that the safety standards are for the drivers, not everyone around them. Small trucks = not safe Massive modern trucks killing cyclists and pedestrians = very safe! (For the driver)
- tourmalinetaco 2y ago
  A small truck has just as much possibility to kill as a big truck, and in fact due to the smaller application of similar forces its more likely to seriously cripple you, even if said hit was non-fatal. While I’m all for reducing the size of cars in USA, pretending that ”massive modern trucks” are the only ones that kill is just wrong.
  - ejstronge 2y ago
    > A small truck has just as much possibility to kill as a big truck, and in fact due to the smaller application of similar forces its more likely to seriously cripple you, even if said hit was non-fatal. > While I’m all for reducing the size of cars in USA, pretending that ”massive modern trucks” are the only ones that kill is just wrong. The argument is that a larger truck is more likely to kill - instead of resulting in injuries that can be treated. There is evidence for this.
    - capitainenemo 2y ago
      Yes, and it's not just mass, it's also hood height. https://ssti.us/2024/01/29/vehicle-hoods-are-now-four-inches-taller-and-22-percent-more-deadly-for-pedestrians/ https://ssti.us/2024/01/29/vehicle-hoods-are-now-four-inches...
    - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
      There is also very obvious evidence that regardless of size you are overwhelmingly likely to die when hit by a vehicle and that in fact due to the application of force via the hood even in non-fatal crashes smaller vehicles have a higher chance to cripple you for life. I really shouldn’t be surprised that saying ‘getting hit by a car, regardless of size, is deadly’ on HN.
  - nkrisc 2y ago
    You’ve simply got it backwards. More massive trucks with higher top speeds are more dangerous. An F-150 at 30mph is more dangerous than a Honda Fit at 30 mph.
    - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
      I don’t believe I ever denied how dangerous large vehicles are? Although I see a lot of denial in the replies of the danger of smaller vehicles.
      - nkrisc 2y ago
        But what’s your point then? Yes, of course all vehicles are dangerous to some degree. But some are much more dangerous than others. Smaller, lighter vehicles are less dangerous through simply the laws of physics.
  - sundaeofshock 2y ago
    “Large SUVs and pickup trucks are, unsurprisingly, more likely than smaller cars to injure or kill pedestrians due to their greater weight and taller front ends.” https://towardsdatascience.com/suvs-are-killing-people-de6ce08bac3d#:~:text=Several%20factors%20contribute%20to%20these,weight%20and%20taller%20front%20ends https://towardsdatascience.com/suvs-are-killing-people-de6ce....
  - skeaker 2y ago
    Not sure how you can come to this conclusion. Seems obviously false by intuition, napkin math, and a cursory search.
    - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
      The only way you can somehow NOT come to this conclusion is by denying that all vehicles, big or small, are dangerous and fooling yourself into thinking that there is some magical size where a multi-ton object going at 60MPH is somehow not a lethal force.
      - skeaker 2y ago
        I mean it's just momentum = mass*velocity. Something with more mass inherently has more momentum, and will therefore be harder to stop in an emergency/hit harder when it crashes. That's obviously more dangerous no matter how you look at it. A penny going at 60 MPH at your head probably won't kill you but a truck will. A penny going 1000 MPH will probably kill you, but I wouldn't call a penny as dangerous as a truck even though they're both potentially lethal.
_yb2s 2y ago
It makes sense to regulate what can be sold new, while grandfathering in what was sold legally in the past. People won’t stand for the government jerking people around and saying “this vehicle you purchased legally is now illegal and can’t be driven or sold, and you need to buy another with your own money… but no guarantees we won’t immediately ban the new one also.” Cars have a finite life span unless restored at great expense, so the problem takes care of itself without overbearing laws that would be seen as the government stealing peoples personal property. Appreciating classic cars is also a mainstay of American culture- with most towns having classic car shows, and things like discounted registration and insurance for antique cars.
- themaninthedark 2y ago
  From the way I read the article, it appears to me that the vehicle registration must be renewed: >But Massachusetts is now pointing out that kei trucks and vans don’t meet federal safety standards and recently included them on a list of vehicles that can’t be registered in the state. The state is now reconsidering that decision, leaving kei truck owners wondering whether they’ll be able to keep driving these vehicles. >All existing unexpired registrations for Kei trucks and vans will remain active as the RMV works to review and assess industry standards related to Kei mini trucks and develop an updated policy addressing the registration of these vehicles. From: https://www.mass.gov/info-details/vehicles-that-cannot-be-registeredtitled-in-massachusetts#:~:text=Mini%20Kei%20Trucks%20and%20Vans,-A%20Kei%20class&text=The%20Massachusetts%20RMV%2C%20under%20its,for%20registration%20of%20Kei%20trucks https://www.mass.gov/info-details/vehicles-that-cannot-be-re.... So depending on how registrations in MA work and if they expire, they will be pulling the rug out from under the owners. Related, if we are worried about crash safety(ostentatiously of the operator and passengers) why does MA still allow motorcycles?

jszymborski 2y ago

I really don't get the NA car market. There is a demand for small kei car/trucks as is natural with cities growing and parking dwindling. Yet even compacts are disappearing. My kingdom for an EV compact that is compact. Even the Fiat 500s and Mini Coops feel like they get bigger each year.

sidewndr46 2y ago
Fuel economy standards, emissions standards, safety standards, & profit margins. If you want to sell cars and make money, compacts are not where it is at.
- khafra 2y ago
  Compacts, subcompacts, and microcompacts are very popular in Europe. Is this because Europe has fewer and less restrictive standards for fuel economy, emissions, and safety? I am not an automotive policy expert, but I feel like Europe tends to regulate more than the US does.
  - PetitPrince 2y ago
    One factor to take into account is that streets and roads are narrower (or at least feels narrower). I would be very uncomfortable driving those huge SUV where I live.
    - gedy 2y ago
      Yeah my expat friend owns a midsized (for the US) SUV in Spain, and she finds it incredibly difficult to use in the city she lives in due to the narrow streets + sidewalk cafes.
  - sidewndr46 2y ago
    No, it's because the US has a different set of regulations entirely.
  - troupo 2y ago

reedf1 2y ago

Many Japanese vehicles are banned, especially light trucks, because they are too competitive. They are often banned for trumped up reasons, mostly to protect local competition.

infecto 2y ago
This sounds like a massive conspiracy if I have ever heard one. Evidence would be helpful. Foreign markets are often very different and those vehicles don't pass safety in the US. My favorite was the death traps that Toyota Mexico made up until a couple years ago. Brand new vehicle but absolute death trap.
- Havoc 2y ago
  Not OP but BYD cars are being kept out via policy so don’t think it’s that far fetched. Certainly not conspiracy territory https://www.vox.com/climate/2024/3/4/24087919/biden-tariff-chinese-ev-byd-battery-detroit https://www.vox.com/climate/2024/3/4/24087919/biden-tariff-c...
  - infecto 2y ago
    Those are not "trumped" up reasons those. That is an explicit ban that the US makes.
- reverius42 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax > The Chicken tax is a 25 percent tariff on light trucks (and originally on potato starch, dextrin, and brandy) imposed in 1964 by the United States under President Lyndon B. Johnson in response to tariffs placed by France and West Germany on importation of U.S. chicken. > Eventually, the tariffs on potato starch, dextrin, and brandy were lifted,[4] but since 1964 this form of protectionism has remained in place to give US domestic automakers an advantage over imported competitors.
  - infecto 2y ago

EligibleDecoy 2y ago

The hypocrisy is that if safety was the overall concern, then motorcycles would have been banned a long time ago (and I say this as someone who enjoys riding my motorcycle). I think the actual problem is that when compared to other cars in their category these kei trucks do have abysmal safety standards such as no airbags or crumple zones. Which is because there isn’t a mini truck category in the US. Basically all pick up trucks are the same category. The point about older cars still on the road is a valid point though, cars made before 1998 didn’t require airbags so if they can still be registered then the kei trucks should too.

petesergeant 2y ago
I assume governance is the art of the possible, and banning motorbikes is impossible for political reasons, where banning hobby vehicles looks pretty straight-forward.
- loloquwowndueo 2y ago
  Motorbikes are hobby vehicles.
  - short_sells_poo 2y ago
    Not in a city they aren't. They are an excellent commuting tool that offers much of the flexibility of a car for a fraction of the cost and much better commute time.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - cuddlyogre 2y ago
      And several times the noise and pollution.
      - digdugdirk 2y ago

tsuru 2y ago

Japan has different standards and driving environment around kei cars (I'm going to use K-car going forward). - Their top speed limit even on highways is 100kmh / 60mph - K-cars have yellow license plates and yellow license plates are not allowed on highways I have a memory of seeing one of the infamous white K-trucks on an interstate in Nashville and was gobsmacked. These cars are not rated for highway / interstates in Japan, let alone the U.S. I'm not sure if the U.S. has a similar visible markings for farm vehicles to allow K-cars city road travel and deny interstate travel. If not, I agree they should be banned until some sort of classification is made and driver culture / knowledge is propagated.

filmor 2y ago
Where does it say that K-cars are not allowed on highways? I'm certain that I saw quite a few, and I can find no source that says otherwise.
- minebreaker 2y ago
  Yes, kei cars are sure allowed to drive on highways. > Their top speed limit even on highways is 100kmh That's an old standard. They're allowed to go up to 120km/h on some roads.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

andrewgilmartin 2y ago

And yet low-speed vehicles are allowed.... Low-speed vehicles are coming to Rhode Island streets https://turnto10.com/news/local/low-speed-vehicles-are-coming-to-rhode-island-streets-southern-new-england-wareham-massachusetts-june-25-2024 https://turnto10.com/news/local/low-speed-vehicles-are-comin...

gnabgib 2y ago

Related Massachusetts 'Reviewing' Kei Car Ban After Uproar over Canceled Registrations (41 points, 8 days ago, 52 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41180154 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41180154