5 ms·

I presume if you are caught, the IRS or the court will hold you in the wrong for fraud and tax evasion. Because they get to interpret the law, not you.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> presume if you are caught, the IRS or the court will hold you in the wrong for fraud and tax evasion What is the difference between a discretionary bonus and a tip? What if I add a tip line to my business invoices? The best solution is an income and deduction limit, e.g. you can't claim if you earn more then 2x median wage ($85,600 [1]) and/or the deduction is capped at the greater of $10,000 and 20% of your AGI. Without an income deduction, I assure you, I will figure out how to get tipped. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_median_wage_and_mean_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...
- quantified 2y ago
  So many receipts have a tip line already, why not?
  - treebeard901 2y ago
    This is the same Justice System that recently ruled a gratitutiy for a Judge after a ruling isn't a form of bribery or corruption. So your mileage may vary.
    - rayiner 2y ago
      They didn’t do that. They ruled that gratuities and bribes are two different kinds of corruption that require different proof and are made illegal under different laws. For example, this helpful primer on the “differences between the offense of bribery and the offense of accepting a gratuity” was last updated in 1998: https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-2043-comparison-elements-crimes-bribery-and-gratuities https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual... You should consider reading legal news that doesn’t lie to your face.
      - treebeard901 2y ago
        Seems odd to attack my news sources, as if you know which ones I use instead of the argument itself. Under no circumstance should a Judge accept money from anyone even remotely involved in any case. It doesn't matter what they call it after.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  > The best solution is an income and deduction limit You don't have to help them try to make it make sense, it isn't intended to make sense. A completely sensible proposal is to lower taxes on the middle class. But that's also entirely uncontroversial and furthermore they repeatedly say it and then don't do it so no one believes them and therefore no one pays attention to them if they say that. "No tax on tips" gets people excited because a) there are a lot of service workers (which is the point; that's a lot of votes) and b) anybody can see that it's a tax loophole so large that even non-service workers can concoct a way to get in on it, but c) they haven't heard it before and it sounds like the kind of thing that could pass, because it won't cost the government too much revenue if the only people getting it would be a couple of waitresses and they themselves who will, unlike other people, come up with an ingenious plan to use this to avoid paying taxes anymore. In other words, it's a silly proposal with extremely high memetic fitness. Don't try to fix it, just realize that what working people actually want you to do is lower their taxes.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > there are a lot of service workers (which is the point; that's a lot of votes) Specifically, Nevada.
  - twoodfin 2y ago
    The income tax burden on the middle class has been dropping for decades under tax policies across administrations of both parties, from an effective 19.1% in 1979 to 13% in the last pre-COVID year of 2019: https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/historical-average-federal-tax-rates-all-households https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/historical-averag...
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      Not quite. That link is doing something weird and including the corporate tax rates to arrive at "total" tax rates. The median total of individual and payroll tax rates by those tables was 16% in 1979 and 11.4% in 2019. But even that isn't right because it apparently isn't counting the so-called "employer contribution" of FICA for people who aren't self-employed: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/taxRates.html https://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/taxRates.html Using those numbers for the payroll tax rates, the median combined rate was 19.66% in 1979 and 17.7% in 2019. And this is slightly overestimating the rate in 1979 because the self-employed payroll tax was less than the combined employer+employee rate in 1979. So there hasn't been a significant reduction in 40 years, and the rate on small businesses has actually increased. But that's not all. The start of that table was a high point. The median effective tax rate in 1950 was 5.5%: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/80inintravmatr.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/80inintravmatr.pdf That probably doesn't include FICA, but FICA in 1950 was only 1.5%/3% (and again less than the combined rate for self-employed back then), so the median federal effective tax rate would have been <8.5% in 1950 compared to 17.7% in 2019. And 1950 isn't even the low point, it's just the earliest number in that document. The federal government dramatically raised taxes on the middle class in the early to mid 20th century and they've been stuck there since.
- blitzar 2y ago
  The 20% performance fee in the 2 and 20 for hedge fund managers can easily become a tip on their tax returns, but I dont expect they will be back at the table asking what they did so wrong that would deserve such a paltry tip.
- basch 2y ago
  I personally would love for the world NOT to move towards MORE tipping, which a tax exemption would encourage. Wouldn't it make more sense to bump standard deduction to $85,600. If someone is making more than $85,600, they pay taxes whether its tips or not.
  - 486sx33 2y ago
    No, because the entire point of a tip is to reward great service What we should be doing is tipping better for great service and tipping less or not at all for poor service!
    - basch 2y ago
      You tip the person who pours you a drip coffee or a tap beer, but not the person who lugs an 80lb box to your doorstep. Would you advocate eliminating the $1 handing someone a cup tip, because it is expected service and not "above and beyond?"
deafpolygon 2y ago
Unless you're wealthy, in which case you can hold the IRS hostage for as long as you want until they drop the case.
- pas 2y ago
  are you referring to a particular case?

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> presume if you are caught, the IRS or the court will hold you in the wrong for fraud and tax evasion What is the difference between a discretionary bonus and a tip? What if I add a tip line to my business invoices? The best solution is an income and deduction limit, e.g. you can't claim if you earn more then 2x median wage ($85,600 [1]) and/or the deduction is capped at the greater of $10,000 and 20% of your AGI. Without an income deduction, I assure you, I will figure out how to get tipped. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_median_wage_and_mean_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...

quantified 2y ago
So many receipts have a tip line already, why not?
- treebeard901 2y ago
  This is the same Justice System that recently ruled a gratitutiy for a Judge after a ruling isn't a form of bribery or corruption. So your mileage may vary.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    They didn’t do that. They ruled that gratuities and bribes are two different kinds of corruption that require different proof and are made illegal under different laws. For example, this helpful primer on the “differences between the offense of bribery and the offense of accepting a gratuity” was last updated in 1998: https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-2043-comparison-elements-crimes-bribery-and-gratuities https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual... You should consider reading legal news that doesn’t lie to your face.
    - treebeard901 2y ago
      Seems odd to attack my news sources, as if you know which ones I use instead of the argument itself. Under no circumstance should a Judge accept money from anyone even remotely involved in any case. It doesn't matter what they call it after.
AnthonyMouse 2y ago
> The best solution is an income and deduction limit You don't have to help them try to make it make sense, it isn't intended to make sense. A completely sensible proposal is to lower taxes on the middle class. But that's also entirely uncontroversial and furthermore they repeatedly say it and then don't do it so no one believes them and therefore no one pays attention to them if they say that. "No tax on tips" gets people excited because a) there are a lot of service workers (which is the point; that's a lot of votes) and b) anybody can see that it's a tax loophole so large that even non-service workers can concoct a way to get in on it, but c) they haven't heard it before and it sounds like the kind of thing that could pass, because it won't cost the government too much revenue if the only people getting it would be a couple of waitresses and they themselves who will, unlike other people, come up with an ingenious plan to use this to avoid paying taxes anymore. In other words, it's a silly proposal with extremely high memetic fitness. Don't try to fix it, just realize that what working people actually want you to do is lower their taxes.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > there are a lot of service workers (which is the point; that's a lot of votes) Specifically, Nevada.
- twoodfin 2y ago
  The income tax burden on the middle class has been dropping for decades under tax policies across administrations of both parties, from an effective 19.1% in 1979 to 13% in the last pre-COVID year of 2019: https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/historical-average-federal-tax-rates-all-households https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/historical-averag...
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    Not quite. That link is doing something weird and including the corporate tax rates to arrive at "total" tax rates. The median total of individual and payroll tax rates by those tables was 16% in 1979 and 11.4% in 2019. But even that isn't right because it apparently isn't counting the so-called "employer contribution" of FICA for people who aren't self-employed: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/taxRates.html https://www.ssa.gov/oact/progdata/taxRates.html Using those numbers for the payroll tax rates, the median combined rate was 19.66% in 1979 and 17.7% in 2019. And this is slightly overestimating the rate in 1979 because the self-employed payroll tax was less than the combined employer+employee rate in 1979. So there hasn't been a significant reduction in 40 years, and the rate on small businesses has actually increased. But that's not all. The start of that table was a high point. The median effective tax rate in 1950 was 5.5%: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/80inintravmatr.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/80inintravmatr.pdf That probably doesn't include FICA, but FICA in 1950 was only 1.5%/3% (and again less than the combined rate for self-employed back then), so the median federal effective tax rate would have been <8.5% in 1950 compared to 17.7% in 2019. And 1950 isn't even the low point, it's just the earliest number in that document. The federal government dramatically raised taxes on the middle class in the early to mid 20th century and they've been stuck there since.
blitzar 2y ago
The 20% performance fee in the 2 and 20 for hedge fund managers can easily become a tip on their tax returns, but I dont expect they will be back at the table asking what they did so wrong that would deserve such a paltry tip.
basch 2y ago
I personally would love for the world NOT to move towards MORE tipping, which a tax exemption would encourage. Wouldn't it make more sense to bump standard deduction to $85,600. If someone is making more than $85,600, they pay taxes whether its tips or not.
- 486sx33 2y ago
  No, because the entire point of a tip is to reward great service What we should be doing is tipping better for great service and tipping less or not at all for poor service!
  - basch 2y ago
    You tip the person who pours you a drip coffee or a tap beer, but not the person who lugs an 80lb box to your doorstep. Would you advocate eliminating the $1 handing someone a cup tip, because it is expected service and not "above and beyond?"

deafpolygon 2y ago

Unless you're wealthy, in which case you can hold the IRS hostage for as long as you want until they drop the case.

pas 2y ago
are you referring to a particular case?