4 ms·

The real story about the Nord Stream pipeline explosion

50 points by IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago

IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago
https://archive.is/Z0XgG https://archive.is/Z0XgG
juanani 2y ago
[dead]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
blowsand 2y ago
The article is surprisingly flimsy on details and heavy on fact-obfuscation and reliance on anonymous sources. I’m left with the same level of uncertainty as I began with.
- IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago
  The KISS principle applies. Could 6 sole actors + 1 support staff, run a clandestine operation that was so wildly successful ? Seems like the answer is yes. A stupidly simple plan provided you have depth in professional, loyal staff, and some legacy resources for covert travel as a state actor. It follows that such a hodgepodge ops would not have needed much in terms of TPS reporting, documented approvals, and just overall bureaucracy. Therefore, not much detail other than what they say is expected. Unless you have access to the 7 or so individuals identified. Could they be patsies? Sure. But the story seems to fit the mold. What's crazy is that if they had dropped their phones, they would have likely never been found out.
- flaptrap 2y ago
  Why was Russia flaring off natural gas in the period before the explosion, if Russia was not involved? Wikipedia: gas deliveries were suspended from August 31, 2021 and Germany "suspended" certification of Nord Stream 2. Ukraine had nothing to gain by this sabotage. Instead, there was a spitting fight between Russia and Germany. One of the Nord Stream 2 pipelines was left untouched, if Germany would only swallow its collective pride and accept gas through Nord Stream 2 - and allow the Russian entities get paid for their investments. The argument and conclusion that Ukraine would divert its resources and act against its allies while it was desperately defending against Russia and Belarus are preposterous. Ukraine was not acting outside its own borders at the time, while Russia is well-known to having no respect for other sovereigns.
reducesuffering 2y ago
Somewhat sad Seymour Hersh's bogus story gets 1000 comments and when mostly the real situation surfaces, no one on HN cares.
- mc32 2y ago
  Well, still, at least it does not defy common sense or logic. When the Media and governments were confidently pointing fingers at Russia, it made absolutely no sense unless you thought Putin had lost his mind completely. It made absolutely no sense, but in the same way they peddled that Biden "runs rings" around his younger staffers, they said it often enough and assertively enough that people took it at face value.
  - reducesuffering 2y ago
    > When the Media and governments were confidently pointing fingers at Russia I followed the reports. There was a myriad of low-confidence speculation around US, Ukraine, or Russia. Nothing confident from almost any media or government. There have been many European and American media reports and government statements since just a few weeks after the incident that indicated they didn't have evidence it was Russia. The Ukrainian Andromeda ship was flagged as suspicious within some months and the counterbalance was, let's not be too hasty, it might be false flag. The western infosphere is a lot better than RT and I've gotten no inclination from it that it was definitely Russia. Russia is the one pointing at UK and US. The reporting was generally correct, as opposed to Seymour Hersh's wild fairytale which bears no semblance to reality (single source, elite Norwegian team, BALTOPS 2022...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Nord_Stream_pipeline_sabotage#Reactions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Nord_Stream_pipeline_sabo...
    - mc32 2y ago
      Here is but one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWdKK06-7EE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWdKK06-7EE or: https://apnews.com/article/germany-ukraine-russia-gas-pipeline-attack-nordstream-d267ad7dcff560c9ecaebf4f213e5229 https://apnews.com/article/germany-ukraine-russia-gas-pipeli... But if you want to look around, you will see plenty, vast amounts of pundits and officials pointing fingers at Russia, if not directly accusing it. I'm sure, if we put a collage together of all the CNN, ABC, MSNBC, Fox, etc., et., we'd see lots of guests putting forth the idea it was Russia, with very few objections, despite the obvious outrageousness of the idea. It's in the same class of stupidity that the US brought down the twin towers type conspiracy theory nonsense. Now, was it a couple of drunk guys; no, that's not likely but it's at least pointing in the actual direction, while adding a less than believable disclaimer.

IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago

https://archive.is/Z0XgG https://archive.is/Z0XgG

juanani 2y ago

[dead]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

blowsand 2y ago

The article is surprisingly flimsy on details and heavy on fact-obfuscation and reliance on anonymous sources. I’m left with the same level of uncertainty as I began with.

IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago
The KISS principle applies. Could 6 sole actors + 1 support staff, run a clandestine operation that was so wildly successful ? Seems like the answer is yes. A stupidly simple plan provided you have depth in professional, loyal staff, and some legacy resources for covert travel as a state actor. It follows that such a hodgepodge ops would not have needed much in terms of TPS reporting, documented approvals, and just overall bureaucracy. Therefore, not much detail other than what they say is expected. Unless you have access to the 7 or so individuals identified. Could they be patsies? Sure. But the story seems to fit the mold. What's crazy is that if they had dropped their phones, they would have likely never been found out.
flaptrap 2y ago
Why was Russia flaring off natural gas in the period before the explosion, if Russia was not involved? Wikipedia: gas deliveries were suspended from August 31, 2021 and Germany "suspended" certification of Nord Stream 2. Ukraine had nothing to gain by this sabotage. Instead, there was a spitting fight between Russia and Germany. One of the Nord Stream 2 pipelines was left untouched, if Germany would only swallow its collective pride and accept gas through Nord Stream 2 - and allow the Russian entities get paid for their investments. The argument and conclusion that Ukraine would divert its resources and act against its allies while it was desperately defending against Russia and Belarus are preposterous. Ukraine was not acting outside its own borders at the time, while Russia is well-known to having no respect for other sovereigns.

reducesuffering 2y ago

Somewhat sad Seymour Hersh's bogus story gets 1000 comments and when mostly the real situation surfaces, no one on HN cares.

mc32 2y ago
Well, still, at least it does not defy common sense or logic. When the Media and governments were confidently pointing fingers at Russia, it made absolutely no sense unless you thought Putin had lost his mind completely. It made absolutely no sense, but in the same way they peddled that Biden "runs rings" around his younger staffers, they said it often enough and assertively enough that people took it at face value.
- reducesuffering 2y ago
  > When the Media and governments were confidently pointing fingers at Russia I followed the reports. There was a myriad of low-confidence speculation around US, Ukraine, or Russia. Nothing confident from almost any media or government. There have been many European and American media reports and government statements since just a few weeks after the incident that indicated they didn't have evidence it was Russia. The Ukrainian Andromeda ship was flagged as suspicious within some months and the counterbalance was, let's not be too hasty, it might be false flag. The western infosphere is a lot better than RT and I've gotten no inclination from it that it was definitely Russia. Russia is the one pointing at UK and US. The reporting was generally correct, as opposed to Seymour Hersh's wild fairytale which bears no semblance to reality (single source, elite Norwegian team, BALTOPS 2022...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Nord_Stream_pipeline_sabotage#Reactions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Nord_Stream_pipeline_sabo...
  - mc32 2y ago
    Here is but one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWdKK06-7EE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWdKK06-7EE or: https://apnews.com/article/germany-ukraine-russia-gas-pipeline-attack-nordstream-d267ad7dcff560c9ecaebf4f213e5229 https://apnews.com/article/germany-ukraine-russia-gas-pipeli... But if you want to look around, you will see plenty, vast amounts of pundits and officials pointing fingers at Russia, if not directly accusing it. I'm sure, if we put a collage together of all the CNN, ABC, MSNBC, Fox, etc., et., we'd see lots of guests putting forth the idea it was Russia, with very few objections, despite the obvious outrageousness of the idea. It's in the same class of stupidity that the US brought down the twin towers type conspiracy theory nonsense. Now, was it a couple of drunk guys; no, that's not likely but it's at least pointing in the actual direction, while adding a less than believable disclaimer.