3 ms·

I don’t know enough about these sorts of trials but only having 5 participants with mild depression or worse in the actual trial with the vinegar “treatment” se

I don’t know enough about these sorts of trials but only having 5 participants with mild depression or worse in the actual trial with the vinegar “treatment” seems too low to draw many conclusions. Am I incorrect?

ggm 2y ago
I don't think you're incorrect. But, that said, acetic acid is a precursor for butyrate which feeds the lower gut. Gut health is now held (from much better studies although I think it may still be a work-in-progress) to tie pretty directly to mental health, there's something going on across the blood-brain barrier which functionally makes your gut "part" of the brain's state. So, in summary, it's bad science in a good space. Better science is needed. For once, those damn hippies going on about apple cider vinegar may have been on to something although personally I go for aged balsamic on Mushrooms: Vitamin D, they taste amazing and umami.
- TheCleric 2y ago
  I definitely agree that the brain gut connection is promising and worth exploring and the science here could even be true and helpful. I just found the methodology underwhelming compared to the claims.
  - ggm 2y ago
    Totally. 5 works for me in UX testing a new button. I wouldn't dial M for murder on a Rat from 5 samples of a theory. Get to 100 and we're starting to talk. Show me some independent reproducibility &c
fnord77 2y ago
Where do you see n = 5? > randomized to the experimental (VIN) group (n = 24) or control (CON) group (n = 21) Still too few imo
- TheCleric 2y ago
  It’s buried in there: A single participant (VIN group) scored above 15 at baseline on the CES-D measure, indicating possible risk for clinical depression. The PHQ-9 responses at baseline indicated that three VIN participants and one CON participant scored in the range of 5 to 9, indicating mild depression, and one VIN participant (not the same individual who scored high on the CES-D measure) scored in the range of 10 to 14, indicating moderate depression. Thus, 5 participants (18% of the total sample) scored above the threshold indicating a potential risk for depression and mirroring recent national prevalence estimates for depression among U.S. adults: 18.5%

ggm 2y ago

I don't think you're incorrect. But, that said, acetic acid is a precursor for butyrate which feeds the lower gut. Gut health is now held (from much better studies although I think it may still be a work-in-progress) to tie pretty directly to mental health, there's something going on across the blood-brain barrier which functionally makes your gut "part" of the brain's state. So, in summary, it's bad science in a good space. Better science is needed. For once, those damn hippies going on about apple cider vinegar may have been on to something although personally I go for aged balsamic on Mushrooms: Vitamin D, they taste amazing and umami.

TheCleric 2y ago
I definitely agree that the brain gut connection is promising and worth exploring and the science here could even be true and helpful. I just found the methodology underwhelming compared to the claims.
- ggm 2y ago
  Totally. 5 works for me in UX testing a new button. I wouldn't dial M for murder on a Rat from 5 samples of a theory. Get to 100 and we're starting to talk. Show me some independent reproducibility &c

fnord77 2y ago

Where do you see n = 5? > randomized to the experimental (VIN) group (n = 24) or control (CON) group (n = 21) Still too few imo

TheCleric 2y ago
It’s buried in there: A single participant (VIN group) scored above 15 at baseline on the CES-D measure, indicating possible risk for clinical depression. The PHQ-9 responses at baseline indicated that three VIN participants and one CON participant scored in the range of 5 to 9, indicating mild depression, and one VIN participant (not the same individual who scored high on the CES-D measure) scored in the range of 10 to 14, indicating moderate depression. Thus, 5 participants (18% of the total sample) scored above the threshold indicating a potential risk for depression and mirroring recent national prevalence estimates for depression among U.S. adults: 18.5%