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"It's entirely true because it's easy to prove that any normal decently paid occupation with thrifty savings will result in rich, at least by a normal standard.

by dbspin 2y ago

"It's entirely true because it's easy to prove that any normal decently paid occupation with thrifty savings will result in rich, at least by a normal standard." The phrase 'normal decently paid' is doing a lot of work here. You absolutely will not 'get rich' on the median wage in almost any developed country, irrespective of your 'thrifty savings'. Given the rising cost of housing, and the increasing inaccessibility of home ownership, anything but an income well in excess of that accessible to a supermajority of people is unlikely to result in housing security, let alone wealth. Without trying to antagonise, I do think this perspective arises from an ignorance of how much more hackernews tech people earn than is actually 'normal'. For example, here in Ireland the median wage is €45,537. In the US it's $63,795. With luck, continual employment from graduation, no major health challenges or other unanticipated life events and marriage or long term partnership, it may be possible to one day own a home on these salaries. It's virtually impossible to be 'wealthy' or 'secure' in any usual sense of the word. Given the two recent recessions, and the changes in family composition very few people I know are in these circumstances. Most are renting in precarity.

bombcar 2y ago
I have never earned terribly more than the median US salary and I have a house and a family. It's possible - if difficult. There's no denying that more money helps, but looking at https://www.marketwatch.com/picks/heres-how-rich-you-need-to-be-to-buy-a-home-in-america-today-01649276369 https://www.marketwatch.com/picks/heres-how-rich-you-need-to... shows it can be done at varying levels. Again, if the median is $63k, that means half are below that; if you're at the median and you live below the median, you're saving money. 23% live below $35k, so if you make $63k and live like you make $35k, you should be able to save at least $10k a year or more. Of course, choosing to spend your money on divorces and child support greatly hampers things (and those are choices, even if you feel it's the only reasonable one).
- dbspin 2y ago
  > so if you make $63k and live like you make $35k, you should be able to save at least $10k a year or more. You're discounting tax. At least in Ireland, as a PAYE worker (employee) your take home would be 32,228. Given rent, food and bills, it is not remotely realistic to assume savings of that level. Still less save for a deposit or a house or apartment, climbing onto the property ladder. Can you live below your means, sure? Will this provide enough capital to meaningfully invest? On its own absolutely not. It's much harder for me to guesstimate tax and expenses for the US, but I'd assume similar is true. You're also assuming no children - which is a pretty grim, but realistic assessment given these income levels. At a median income level having children now actively puts you in poverty.
  - bombcar 2y ago
    The USA actually has some of the most advantageous tax policy for low-wage earners (and those with children, even more) in the world. And by low-wage earners I mean anywhere from way below the poverty line to ... barely scraping by at $400k a year for some of them? You start with the Earned Income Tax Credit - which basically takes your 0% federal rate and refunds even more to compensate and overtake social security tax. Then you have ACA subsidies that eliminate healthcare costs (or greatly reduce it). And then there's the Child Tax Credit - up to $2k per child. This one isn't refundable so you end up having some room. All of this is just on the tax form - this does NOT count any of the other assistance available. The surest way out of poverty in the USA - assuming someone is actively trying their best and not wasting anything, time, talent, treasure - is to be stably married and have some kids. (All my comments are around the USA of course, I have no experience of Europe or Ireland in particular - but everyone online always assures me that Europe is a paradise compared to the complete hellscape that America is ;) - so I assume y'all doing pretty well. If not, come on over! We have some statue about it.)
    - dbspin 2y ago
      I'm genuinely curious - how could having children possibly be a way out of poverty? Unless you're making the assumption that they'll be in an economically better position than you and 'take care of you in your retirement', or similar? 2K per child per year isn't going to approach the cost of raising a child. Which seems to be closer to 20k per year - https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-true-cost-of-raising-a-child https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-true-cost-of-raising-a-child Cursory search seems to indicate that ACA is still quite expensive for low earners - https://www.forbes.com/advisor/health-insurance/how-much-is-obamacare/#:~:text=The%20average%20Obamacare%20plan%20costs,all%20affect%20ACA%20plan%20costs https://www.forbes.com/advisor/health-insurance/how-much-is-.... I really don't know what you're suggesting here... We're discussing the possibility of attaining wealth by saving / investing on a median income, and you simply haven't supported the assertion that that's possible or likely with anything you've posted. Income inequality is larger, and social mobility lower in the US than at most points in history, and this is largely true for Europe too - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Socioeconomic%20mobility%20in%20the%20United%20States%20refers%20to%20the%20upward,health%20changes%20or%20other%20factors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_.... As someone actually living on an income in this ball park, I can assure you that tax credits aren't money, they're just less tax debt. And that the concept of having kids on a low income would actually be terrifying.

by dbspin 2y ago

bombcar 2y ago

I have never earned terribly more than the median US salary and I have a house and a family. It's possible - if difficult. There's no denying that more money helps, but looking at https://www.marketwatch.com/picks/heres-how-rich-you-need-to-be-to-buy-a-home-in-america-today-01649276369 https://www.marketwatch.com/picks/heres-how-rich-you-need-to... shows it can be done at varying levels. Again, if the median is $63k, that means half are below that; if you're at the median and you live below the median, you're saving money. 23% live below $35k, so if you make $63k and live like you make $35k, you should be able to save at least $10k a year or more. Of course, choosing to spend your money on divorces and child support greatly hampers things (and those are choices, even if you feel it's the only reasonable one).

dbspin 2y ago
> so if you make $63k and live like you make $35k, you should be able to save at least $10k a year or more. You're discounting tax. At least in Ireland, as a PAYE worker (employee) your take home would be 32,228. Given rent, food and bills, it is not remotely realistic to assume savings of that level. Still less save for a deposit or a house or apartment, climbing onto the property ladder. Can you live below your means, sure? Will this provide enough capital to meaningfully invest? On its own absolutely not. It's much harder for me to guesstimate tax and expenses for the US, but I'd assume similar is true. You're also assuming no children - which is a pretty grim, but realistic assessment given these income levels. At a median income level having children now actively puts you in poverty.
- bombcar 2y ago
  The USA actually has some of the most advantageous tax policy for low-wage earners (and those with children, even more) in the world. And by low-wage earners I mean anywhere from way below the poverty line to ... barely scraping by at $400k a year for some of them? You start with the Earned Income Tax Credit - which basically takes your 0% federal rate and refunds even more to compensate and overtake social security tax. Then you have ACA subsidies that eliminate healthcare costs (or greatly reduce it). And then there's the Child Tax Credit - up to $2k per child. This one isn't refundable so you end up having some room. All of this is just on the tax form - this does NOT count any of the other assistance available. The surest way out of poverty in the USA - assuming someone is actively trying their best and not wasting anything, time, talent, treasure - is to be stably married and have some kids. (All my comments are around the USA of course, I have no experience of Europe or Ireland in particular - but everyone online always assures me that Europe is a paradise compared to the complete hellscape that America is ;) - so I assume y'all doing pretty well. If not, come on over! We have some statue about it.)
  - dbspin 2y ago
    I'm genuinely curious - how could having children possibly be a way out of poverty? Unless you're making the assumption that they'll be in an economically better position than you and 'take care of you in your retirement', or similar? 2K per child per year isn't going to approach the cost of raising a child. Which seems to be closer to 20k per year - https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-true-cost-of-raising-a-child https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-true-cost-of-raising-a-child Cursory search seems to indicate that ACA is still quite expensive for low earners - https://www.forbes.com/advisor/health-insurance/how-much-is-obamacare/#:~:text=The%20average%20Obamacare%20plan%20costs,all%20affect%20ACA%20plan%20costs https://www.forbes.com/advisor/health-insurance/how-much-is-.... I really don't know what you're suggesting here... We're discussing the possibility of attaining wealth by saving / investing on a median income, and you simply haven't supported the assertion that that's possible or likely with anything you've posted. Income inequality is larger, and social mobility lower in the US than at most points in history, and this is largely true for Europe too - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Socioeconomic%20mobility%20in%20the%20United%20States%20refers%20to%20the%20upward,health%20changes%20or%20other%20factors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_.... As someone actually living on an income in this ball park, I can assure you that tax credits aren't money, they're just less tax debt. And that the concept of having kids on a low income would actually be terrifying.