4 ms·

I’m sure that all of the ancient scripts will be fed into an LLM or equivalent eventually - it will be fascinating to see if this will give new insights into th

by sungam 2y ago

I’m sure that all of the ancient scripts will be fed into an LLM or equivalent eventually - it will be fascinating to see if this will give new insights into the evolution of language and culture - perhaps even allowing understanding of undeciphered scripts such as Linear A

Bluestein 2y ago
Understanding Linear A would be revolutionary.-
- IncreasePosts 2y ago
  It would certainly be newsworthy, but I'm not sure about revolutionary. We only have essentially a few pages worth of linear A, and who knows what's written with it. Undoubtedly there are tablets and scripts that have been sitting unread in an archive somewhere, in a deciphered language, that we just haven't gotten around to analyzing yet.
  - mithametacs 2y ago
    And even if we understood it, it’s still a tiny amount of text. My educated guess is it’s going to be something like: Zartkir is an asshat
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      Given some of the stuff in Pomppei, most likely.
    - Bluestein 2y ago
      It'd be funny if it turned out to be an epic style rickroll "For many moons and many suns have passed, as time, relentless, flows, Since first their hearts, like twin flames, danced in love’s eternal fire. Yet, the hero, of noble heart and steadfast will, did speak, "My heart yearns for a bond unbroken, a pledge that none may sever. No fleeting fancy, but a troth eternal, one that the gods themselves would envy. For such a vow, none but I could offer, no other man could dare." With eyes like the stars in the firmament, he gazed into the soul of his beloved, And spake thus, with the voice of thunder, yet with the gentleness of the west wind: "Hear me, O cherished one, for I must reveal the depths of my heart. Never shall I forsake thee, never shall I let thee fall, I shall not stray into the shadows nor abandon thee in the wilderness, Never shall I bring sorrow to thine eyes, nor bid thee farewell. Never shall my lips craft falsehoods that wound like the sharpest spear." Through the ages, their bond had grown strong as the oak, Though the maiden's heart did ache with a silent pain, For fear held her tongue captive, her love hidden in the shadows. But the hero, wise as the elders, knew the truth of their shared plight, For both had danced the dance of fate, and knew well the game they played. Then again, he spake, his voice a balm to the troubled heart: "Do not be blind to what lies before us, for the path is clear, And if thou wouldst ask of my heart's burden, know this: I shall not waver, nor falter in my love for thee. Never shall I forsake thee, never shall I let thee fall, I shall not stray into the shadows nor abandon thee in the wilderness, Never shall I bring sorrow to thine eyes, nor bid thee farewell. Never shall my lips craft falsehoods that wound like the sharpest spear." Through the years they had known each other, their souls intertwined, Her heart had borne the weight of unspoken love, Yet now, the veil lifted, they stood as one, United in purpose, ready to face the trials of love's enduring quest. And thus, the hero pledged once more, with a heart pure and true, "Never shall I forsake thee, never shall I let thee fall, I shall not stray into the shadows nor abandon thee in the wilderness, Never shall I bring sorrow to thine eyes, nor bid thee farewell. Never shall my lips craft falsehoods that wound like the sharpest spear." So spake the hero, and the heavens themselves bore witness, As love, unyielding, forged a bond that time could not erode. And thus they walked, hand in hand, into the dawn of a new age, Their hearts as one, forever bound by the sacred oath."
  - Bluestein 2y ago
    > language, that we just haven't gotten around to analyzing yet. Indeed. Thanks for putting things in their right, measured, context.- I guess thid is what I was getting at: How, if deciphered, the process itself would be extraordinary in its widespread application in other cases.-
bhhaskin 2y ago
I know someone who is working on a general LLM to bring back dead languages. They have had great success using old biblical manuscripts and the LLM picks up on the syntax and grammar.
jcranmer 2y ago
Linear A is the undeciphered script with the largest repertoire, about 8000 characters in total, and the largest single fragment is like 300 characters long. It's like trying to understand English given random clippings of signs and maybe a whole sentence from a book that in total amount to 5 or 6 pages of text. And we have a head-start--we make the educated guess of Linear A's phonetic values by comparing to Linear B, which was derived from it. The situation for the other undeciphered scripts is even worse. It's hard to see how LLMs can help here because the problem with understanding these scripts is we just lack enough data to make any conclusions. And LLMs are famously reliant on being very data-hungry.
- theendisney 2y ago
  Different languages have similar words, people make similar expressions and do similar things. I think everything to solve the puzzle is there its just impossibly hard. But who knows, there might be embarresingly obvious things we just didnt notice. At least we will get funny halucinations of the quality of Hindu Rongorongo. lol Cuneiform does strike me as potentially the most awesome application of AI. Very exciting. (Second only to talking with animals.)
  - adastra22 2y ago
    The spoken language corresponding to Linear A is probably unrelated to the spoken language (Greek) represented by Linear B. If Linear A represents a spoken language--and this is by no means certain--then it is the native language of the Minoans, which has long since been lost. So unfortunately we don't have much to go on.
- ggm 2y ago
  https://www.classics.cam.ac.uk/research/projects/mycep/decipherment https://www.classics.cam.ac.uk/research/projects/mycep/decip... Fascinating, sad story of Linear B. Ventris died early. The book from 1958 is well worth reading https://ia600401.us.archive.org/34/items/ChadwickJohnTheDeciphermentOfLinearB1958/Chadwick-John-The-Decipherment-of-Linear-B-1958.pdf https://ia600401.us.archive.org/34/items/ChadwickJohnTheDeci...
- 2y ago

by sungam 2y ago

Bluestein 2y ago

Understanding Linear A would be revolutionary.-

IncreasePosts 2y ago
It would certainly be newsworthy, but I'm not sure about revolutionary. We only have essentially a few pages worth of linear A, and who knows what's written with it. Undoubtedly there are tablets and scripts that have been sitting unread in an archive somewhere, in a deciphered language, that we just haven't gotten around to analyzing yet.
- mithametacs 2y ago
  And even if we understood it, it’s still a tiny amount of text. My educated guess is it’s going to be something like: Zartkir is an asshat
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Given some of the stuff in Pomppei, most likely.
  - Bluestein 2y ago
    It'd be funny if it turned out to be an epic style rickroll "For many moons and many suns have passed, as time, relentless, flows, Since first their hearts, like twin flames, danced in love’s eternal fire. Yet, the hero, of noble heart and steadfast will, did speak, "My heart yearns for a bond unbroken, a pledge that none may sever. No fleeting fancy, but a troth eternal, one that the gods themselves would envy. For such a vow, none but I could offer, no other man could dare." With eyes like the stars in the firmament, he gazed into the soul of his beloved, And spake thus, with the voice of thunder, yet with the gentleness of the west wind: "Hear me, O cherished one, for I must reveal the depths of my heart. Never shall I forsake thee, never shall I let thee fall, I shall not stray into the shadows nor abandon thee in the wilderness, Never shall I bring sorrow to thine eyes, nor bid thee farewell. Never shall my lips craft falsehoods that wound like the sharpest spear." Through the ages, their bond had grown strong as the oak, Though the maiden's heart did ache with a silent pain, For fear held her tongue captive, her love hidden in the shadows. But the hero, wise as the elders, knew the truth of their shared plight, For both had danced the dance of fate, and knew well the game they played. Then again, he spake, his voice a balm to the troubled heart: "Do not be blind to what lies before us, for the path is clear, And if thou wouldst ask of my heart's burden, know this: I shall not waver, nor falter in my love for thee. Never shall I forsake thee, never shall I let thee fall, I shall not stray into the shadows nor abandon thee in the wilderness, Never shall I bring sorrow to thine eyes, nor bid thee farewell. Never shall my lips craft falsehoods that wound like the sharpest spear." Through the years they had known each other, their souls intertwined, Her heart had borne the weight of unspoken love, Yet now, the veil lifted, they stood as one, United in purpose, ready to face the trials of love's enduring quest. And thus, the hero pledged once more, with a heart pure and true, "Never shall I forsake thee, never shall I let thee fall, I shall not stray into the shadows nor abandon thee in the wilderness, Never shall I bring sorrow to thine eyes, nor bid thee farewell. Never shall my lips craft falsehoods that wound like the sharpest spear." So spake the hero, and the heavens themselves bore witness, As love, unyielding, forged a bond that time could not erode. And thus they walked, hand in hand, into the dawn of a new age, Their hearts as one, forever bound by the sacred oath."
- Bluestein 2y ago
  > language, that we just haven't gotten around to analyzing yet. Indeed. Thanks for putting things in their right, measured, context.- I guess thid is what I was getting at: How, if deciphered, the process itself would be extraordinary in its widespread application in other cases.-

bhhaskin 2y ago

I know someone who is working on a general LLM to bring back dead languages. They have had great success using old biblical manuscripts and the LLM picks up on the syntax and grammar.

jcranmer 2y ago

Linear A is the undeciphered script with the largest repertoire, about 8000 characters in total, and the largest single fragment is like 300 characters long. It's like trying to understand English given random clippings of signs and maybe a whole sentence from a book that in total amount to 5 or 6 pages of text. And we have a head-start--we make the educated guess of Linear A's phonetic values by comparing to Linear B, which was derived from it. The situation for the other undeciphered scripts is even worse. It's hard to see how LLMs can help here because the problem with understanding these scripts is we just lack enough data to make any conclusions. And LLMs are famously reliant on being very data-hungry.

theendisney 2y ago
Different languages have similar words, people make similar expressions and do similar things. I think everything to solve the puzzle is there its just impossibly hard. But who knows, there might be embarresingly obvious things we just didnt notice. At least we will get funny halucinations of the quality of Hindu Rongorongo. lol Cuneiform does strike me as potentially the most awesome application of AI. Very exciting. (Second only to talking with animals.)
- adastra22 2y ago
  The spoken language corresponding to Linear A is probably unrelated to the spoken language (Greek) represented by Linear B. If Linear A represents a spoken language--and this is by no means certain--then it is the native language of the Minoans, which has long since been lost. So unfortunately we don't have much to go on.
ggm 2y ago
https://www.classics.cam.ac.uk/research/projects/mycep/decipherment https://www.classics.cam.ac.uk/research/projects/mycep/decip... Fascinating, sad story of Linear B. Ventris died early. The book from 1958 is well worth reading https://ia600401.us.archive.org/34/items/ChadwickJohnTheDeciphermentOfLinearB1958/Chadwick-John-The-Decipherment-of-Linear-B-1958.pdf https://ia600401.us.archive.org/34/items/ChadwickJohnTheDeci...
2y ago