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In all frankness this thread is gossipy. Most programmers know that Alan Kay is the author of the original quote and a simple Google search would verify that. J

In all frankness this thread is gossipy. Most programmers know that Alan Kay is the author of the original quote and a simple Google search would verify that. Just because a site or two quote David Heinemeier Hansson on a variation of said quote, it doesn't mean that he claimed it was his quote. Your message is an open invitation to bash him for no good reason. Quite frankly this is the sort of attitude I'd expect on Reddit not on Hacker News.

jhancock 18y ago
I wasn't trying to be too "gossipy". What I really wanted was for someone to help me find the quote I was looking for? Not this quote that everyone knows. I wasn't trying to bash DHH, I even said that it doesn't matter if its a mistake or not but that others do not know its a mis-reference is the more poignant issue.
- tptacek 18y ago
  Now you're being less "gossipy" and more "insulting to everyone's intelligence", since your original post questions whether DHH is "delusional", and asks if it's "really come to this". You could have just asked the question you claim to have been asking. But that wouldn't have attracted all this attention, now, would it have?
  - jhancock 18y ago
    oh come on!! Do I have to put little smiley faces next to ever piece of humor ;). There, maybe I should end all my sentences that way ;). I am very well aware that everyone on HN knows that quote and that it was mis-referenced. The fact that it was ref'd to DHH just added some humor. And some of my closest friends have referred to me delusional at times... I take it as a compliment ;) There, more smileys for you ;)
    - gruseom 18y ago
      I am very well aware that everyone on HN knows that quote and that it was mis-referenced. Then as far as I'm concerned you wasted our time.
      - jhancock 18y ago
        And you wasted mine. I do see that somehow its "our" time to you. You speak for the whole community now? But I'm not mad about it. You still can't focus on the original problem and offered no assistance to finding the quote I was trying to find. I thought it amusing that DHH and Alan Kay were being confused ;) If you didn't that's ok, that's how humor works. Lets try not to be mad. You and I obviously woke with different attitudes this past day. Maybe the next will be different.
andrewljohnson 18y ago
I love it. There's always been bigotry - racism, religious wars, sexism - but now we have sitism. The Redditors denigrate the Diggers, the HN people hate on the Redditors, though I think it's safe to say that the readers of Digg haven't heard of either ;)
- acangiano 18y ago
  It's not sitism or elitism. :) Please read my reply to iofthestorm.
  - andrewljohnson 18y ago
    It is in fact sitism, since this is a word I just invented, and therefore dictate the meaning of. I mean, I totally agree that on average, a user of reddit is less intelligent than a user of HN, and a user of Digg is less intelligent than a user of Reddit. But that's just a function of traffic - the more traffic you have, the more the average sinks. The earliest example on the web is probably when AOL users got unleashed on usenet. The only thing is, while the average intelligence goes down, the maximum intelligence goes up. Reddit's top 10 smartest people are probably smarter than HN's. Just because you're a user of Reddit, doesn't mean you're not a sitist. Black people are racist towards black people too.
iofthestorm 18y ago
Geez, how elitist can you get? I just started coming here because there's more programming related stuff that sometimes doesn't hit /r/programming, but I haven't seen any evidence that people here are somehow more sophisticated or something than people on reddit. Seems about the same to me, except without the pun threads, and the layout is similar but slightly worse than reddit (like how replying opens a new window).
- davidw 18y ago
  > I haven't seen any evidence that people here are somehow more sophisticated or something than people on reddit. Many of us also have reddit accounts. What's really different is the culture: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html People want this to be a civil, interesting, and mostly serious site about hacking and startups.
  - andrewljohnson 18y ago
    These guidelines have little to do with it, though the editors probably do. The main thing that distinguishes Reddit, Digg, and HN is pure volume. If HN had the same traffic Digg did, you better believe that the average intelligence would go down, and you'd need a heck of a lot more editors to keep the content on target.
    - davidw 18y ago
      Well, the guidelines sum up some of the culture, and you're right that it wouldn't be possible to transmit that if too many people showed up at once. However, it is a real thing. There aren't many editors here, and the idea is to keep the volume down by only posting things that interest a limited segment of the population.
- acangiano 18y ago
  Please don't misconstrue this as a form of elitism. Rather it's a matter of expectations. I've been a member of Reddit (under different nicknames) since their early days, and still have a somewhat active account there. Currently when I visit Reddit I expect a good laugh, some cute pictures, conspiracy theories, sensationalized headlines and the occasional good article and/or discussion. When I comment on Reddit I do so at my own peril, knowing all too well that it's acceptable in that culture to be rude and to offend other redditors, while hiding behind a monitor. Programming.Reddit was the last subreddit where I had some sort of expectations left in regards to learning about, and commenting on, interesting subjects with other professionals. Sadly the mob culture has reached that subreddit too. Anything Ruby or Rails related is considered fair game, and if you hang out there, you'll see a lot of unjustified bashing and character assassinations. There are still good discussions, articles, and good people (like dons), but overall I've lowered my expectations of what I can get from, and offer to, that community. The "alanic" thing is that Python receives a lot of attention and respect in that community, and yet Python and Ruby really are not that different. Their communities may be slightly different, but I wouldn't trust anyone who highly praises one while drastically dissing the other. I've simultaneously had my posts on the homepage of Reddit and Hacker News, including Programming.Reddit. The difference between the two groups of discussions was huge. For example, my post about a great math book generated a series of discussions about math books in general and other reading suggestions on Hacker News. On Reddit the top comment was a link to the Pirate Bay, plus other comments that essentially said "I agree". So while it's not a problem, I have different expectations from the two. I can go to Reddit, Digg or even 4chan for a cheap laugh. But that's not why I come to Hacker News. I come to Hacker News, increasingly more often, in the hope of learning new things, sharing ideas and having nice conversations with like-minded programmers and hackers. Polite, civilized, mostly serious conversations. Conversations that don't require you to be juvenile and rude or that always degenerate into meme/pun threads. And I also expect to network with people. Guys, I'm in Toronto, if you want meet for a coffee, I'd love to. It is not elitism if I have different expectations from two communities that act so differently. We also need to consider the danger of gradually evolving into Reddit. In its early days Reddit was like Hacker News. It was fantastic and addictive. But a lack of moderation, an increasingly wider audience and above all a lack of respect between people in the same community, led Reddit to where it is today. Reddit went from scientific articles and interesting discussions between experts to the mob-like virtual assassination of Joe Clark. Quite frankly, I was disgusted to see a respected professional be attacked so viciously by the community. That's not a community that represents me and that's not a community I have great expectations from or hopes for. And that's part of the reason why I'm pretty much leaving Reddit behind in favor of Hacker News. It's not perfect here, but there is a much better signal to noise ratio and sense of community. Thankfully PG has a clear idea of what this community shouldn't be and as such there are explicit guidelines (http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). Stories get flagged and killed regularly when they don't belong. This, combined with a very clear intent to keep the conversation civil ("Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names.") makes Hacker News the great, unique site that it is. In all fairness, I don't feel elitist for enjoying all this and expecting nothing less from Hacker News.

jhancock 18y ago

I wasn't trying to be too "gossipy". What I really wanted was for someone to help me find the quote I was looking for? Not this quote that everyone knows. I wasn't trying to bash DHH, I even said that it doesn't matter if its a mistake or not but that others do not know its a mis-reference is the more poignant issue.

tptacek 18y ago
Now you're being less "gossipy" and more "insulting to everyone's intelligence", since your original post questions whether DHH is "delusional", and asks if it's "really come to this". You could have just asked the question you claim to have been asking. But that wouldn't have attracted all this attention, now, would it have?
- jhancock 18y ago
  oh come on!! Do I have to put little smiley faces next to ever piece of humor ;). There, maybe I should end all my sentences that way ;). I am very well aware that everyone on HN knows that quote and that it was mis-referenced. The fact that it was ref'd to DHH just added some humor. And some of my closest friends have referred to me delusional at times... I take it as a compliment ;) There, more smileys for you ;)
  - gruseom 18y ago
    I am very well aware that everyone on HN knows that quote and that it was mis-referenced. Then as far as I'm concerned you wasted our time.
    - jhancock 18y ago
      And you wasted mine. I do see that somehow its "our" time to you. You speak for the whole community now? But I'm not mad about it. You still can't focus on the original problem and offered no assistance to finding the quote I was trying to find. I thought it amusing that DHH and Alan Kay were being confused ;) If you didn't that's ok, that's how humor works. Lets try not to be mad. You and I obviously woke with different attitudes this past day. Maybe the next will be different.

andrewljohnson 18y ago

I love it. There's always been bigotry - racism, religious wars, sexism - but now we have sitism. The Redditors denigrate the Diggers, the HN people hate on the Redditors, though I think it's safe to say that the readers of Digg haven't heard of either ;)

acangiano 18y ago
It's not sitism or elitism. :) Please read my reply to iofthestorm.
- andrewljohnson 18y ago
  It is in fact sitism, since this is a word I just invented, and therefore dictate the meaning of. I mean, I totally agree that on average, a user of reddit is less intelligent than a user of HN, and a user of Digg is less intelligent than a user of Reddit. But that's just a function of traffic - the more traffic you have, the more the average sinks. The earliest example on the web is probably when AOL users got unleashed on usenet. The only thing is, while the average intelligence goes down, the maximum intelligence goes up. Reddit's top 10 smartest people are probably smarter than HN's. Just because you're a user of Reddit, doesn't mean you're not a sitist. Black people are racist towards black people too.

iofthestorm 18y ago

Geez, how elitist can you get? I just started coming here because there's more programming related stuff that sometimes doesn't hit /r/programming, but I haven't seen any evidence that people here are somehow more sophisticated or something than people on reddit. Seems about the same to me, except without the pun threads, and the layout is similar but slightly worse than reddit (like how replying opens a new window).

davidw 18y ago
> I haven't seen any evidence that people here are somehow more sophisticated or something than people on reddit. Many of us also have reddit accounts. What's really different is the culture: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html People want this to be a civil, interesting, and mostly serious site about hacking and startups.
- andrewljohnson 18y ago
  These guidelines have little to do with it, though the editors probably do. The main thing that distinguishes Reddit, Digg, and HN is pure volume. If HN had the same traffic Digg did, you better believe that the average intelligence would go down, and you'd need a heck of a lot more editors to keep the content on target.
  - davidw 18y ago
    Well, the guidelines sum up some of the culture, and you're right that it wouldn't be possible to transmit that if too many people showed up at once. However, it is a real thing. There aren't many editors here, and the idea is to keep the volume down by only posting things that interest a limited segment of the population.
acangiano 18y ago
Please don't misconstrue this as a form of elitism. Rather it's a matter of expectations. I've been a member of Reddit (under different nicknames) since their early days, and still have a somewhat active account there. Currently when I visit Reddit I expect a good laugh, some cute pictures, conspiracy theories, sensationalized headlines and the occasional good article and/or discussion. When I comment on Reddit I do so at my own peril, knowing all too well that it's acceptable in that culture to be rude and to offend other redditors, while hiding behind a monitor. Programming.Reddit was the last subreddit where I had some sort of expectations left in regards to learning about, and commenting on, interesting subjects with other professionals. Sadly the mob culture has reached that subreddit too. Anything Ruby or Rails related is considered fair game, and if you hang out there, you'll see a lot of unjustified bashing and character assassinations. There are still good discussions, articles, and good people (like dons), but overall I've lowered my expectations of what I can get from, and offer to, that community. The "alanic" thing is that Python receives a lot of attention and respect in that community, and yet Python and Ruby really are not that different. Their communities may be slightly different, but I wouldn't trust anyone who highly praises one while drastically dissing the other. I've simultaneously had my posts on the homepage of Reddit and Hacker News, including Programming.Reddit. The difference between the two groups of discussions was huge. For example, my post about a great math book generated a series of discussions about math books in general and other reading suggestions on Hacker News. On Reddit the top comment was a link to the Pirate Bay, plus other comments that essentially said "I agree". So while it's not a problem, I have different expectations from the two. I can go to Reddit, Digg or even 4chan for a cheap laugh. But that's not why I come to Hacker News. I come to Hacker News, increasingly more often, in the hope of learning new things, sharing ideas and having nice conversations with like-minded programmers and hackers. Polite, civilized, mostly serious conversations. Conversations that don't require you to be juvenile and rude or that always degenerate into meme/pun threads. And I also expect to network with people. Guys, I'm in Toronto, if you want meet for a coffee, I'd love to. It is not elitism if I have different expectations from two communities that act so differently. We also need to consider the danger of gradually evolving into Reddit. In its early days Reddit was like Hacker News. It was fantastic and addictive. But a lack of moderation, an increasingly wider audience and above all a lack of respect between people in the same community, led Reddit to where it is today. Reddit went from scientific articles and interesting discussions between experts to the mob-like virtual assassination of Joe Clark. Quite frankly, I was disgusted to see a respected professional be attacked so viciously by the community. That's not a community that represents me and that's not a community I have great expectations from or hopes for. And that's part of the reason why I'm pretty much leaving Reddit behind in favor of Hacker News. It's not perfect here, but there is a much better signal to noise ratio and sense of community. Thankfully PG has a clear idea of what this community shouldn't be and as such there are explicit guidelines (http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). Stories get flagged and killed regularly when they don't belong. This, combined with a very clear intent to keep the conversation civil ("Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names.") makes Hacker News the great, unique site that it is. In all fairness, I don't feel elitist for enjoying all this and expecting nothing less from Hacker News.