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> the things you like about science are the reasons why most (if not all) of it is ultimately illusory. How is science illusory?

by derleth 14y ago

Alex3917 14y ago
Science is downstream from philosophy, and behind any given scientific paradigm there are dozens if not hundreds of philosophical assumptions. This means that if philosophy has taught us essentially nothing, then most likely science has taught us several orders of magnitude less than essentially nothing. Modern science as it exists today is basically a quasi-religious system that is more or less the next version of alchemy in terms of its intellectual heritage. It's clear to me that in a couple hundred years we'll probably look back on the science of today the same way that most people today look at alchemy. Already research investigating the truth of the spiritual underpinnings of science is one of the hottest areas of research, and you can't go more than a couple weeks without seeing some new finding or treatise. It's only going to be so long before all of these disparate parts get organized into a cohesive whole that's convincing enough to undermine the current establishment.
- derleth 14y ago
  > Modern science as it exists today is basically a quasi-religious system No. This is simply wrong on a factual level. Science doesn't have dogma. It isn't religion. See? Your ideas fail because you don't have the facts you need to form good ideas. > It's clear to me that in a couple hundred years we'll probably look back on the science of today the same way that most people today look at alchemy. To the extent we do, it will be because of advances in science. Science replaces its own ideas (that is, in fact, the exact opposite of dogma) using evidence and sound mathematical logic, which is why that happens. Trying to use science to prove the weakness of science is a wonderful indication that you haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about.
  - Alex3917 14y ago
    "Science doesn't have dogma. It isn't religion." That's simply false. If you don't believe that science has dogma, open up the first chapter of nearly every biology textbook. Most of them start out by discussing the dogma of science, which is roughly as follows: - We live in a materialist universe. - There exists nothing magical or supernatural. - All phenomena are in principle understandable by humans. - The scientific method is how we can understand the universe. There are many other assumptions behind science as well, but these are the ones that most textbooks usually enumerate explicitly. Being assumptions, none of them are provable. And in fact there is good reason to believe that many (or all) of them are wrong, which would essentially make all of scientific knowledge wrong as well. And while specific scientific results are at least in theory subject to being replaced, these general principles are considered sacred and unchallengable. Science is a religion just like any other. And if you actually look at the principles I listed, they actually look a lot like the four noble truths of buddhism. Different content, but still religious just the same.
    - emmelaich 14y ago
      I've never seen quotes like that. Which is not to say they're not the opinion of the authors. But it's not dogma, it's precision. Strong opinions weakly held as they say. Or more like working assumptions.
    - derleth 14y ago
      > Most of them start out by discussing the dogma of science, which is roughly as follows: They aren't dogma. They can be refuted with sufficient evidence. The failure of the religious to provide such evidence means they haven't yet been refuted. (It also says nasty things about the religious, but propriety forbids me from being more specific.) > there is good reason to believe that many (or all) of them are wrong What reasons? Be precise enough and you get a Nobel Prize and eternal adulation. > they actually look a lot like the four noble truths of buddhism Only to someone who totally misunderstands both science and Buddhism.
      - Alex3917 14y ago
        "They can be refuted with sufficient evidence." Except for that they can't, because everyone who believes in science just says that the reason they believe that science will be able to explain everything is that it has explained everything so far. This is just begging the question, and it's clear that no matter how much evidence there is that there are some things that science can't explain these will just be written off by those who have 'faith' in science. You can go over to r/science or r/atheism and find literally thousands of examples of this. >What reasons? Be precise enough and you get a Nobel Prize and eternal adulation. The obvious one would be that there is absolutely nothing to suggest that consciousness is material in nature. But again, the true believers refute this by listing all the other things that we didn't understand until science came up with some explanation, and saying that therefor science will most likely also be able to explain consciousness one day.

> the things you like about science are the reasons why most (if not all) of it is ultimately illusory. How is science illusory?

by derleth 14y ago

> the things you like about science are the reasons why most (if not all) of it is ultimately illusory. How is science illusory?

Alex3917 14y ago

Science is downstream from philosophy, and behind any given scientific paradigm there are dozens if not hundreds of philosophical assumptions. This means that if philosophy has taught us essentially nothing, then most likely science has taught us several orders of magnitude less than essentially nothing. Modern science as it exists today is basically a quasi-religious system that is more or less the next version of alchemy in terms of its intellectual heritage. It's clear to me that in a couple hundred years we'll probably look back on the science of today the same way that most people today look at alchemy. Already research investigating the truth of the spiritual underpinnings of science is one of the hottest areas of research, and you can't go more than a couple weeks without seeing some new finding or treatise. It's only going to be so long before all of these disparate parts get organized into a cohesive whole that's convincing enough to undermine the current establishment.

derleth 14y ago
> Modern science as it exists today is basically a quasi-religious system No. This is simply wrong on a factual level. Science doesn't have dogma. It isn't religion. See? Your ideas fail because you don't have the facts you need to form good ideas. > It's clear to me that in a couple hundred years we'll probably look back on the science of today the same way that most people today look at alchemy. To the extent we do, it will be because of advances in science. Science replaces its own ideas (that is, in fact, the exact opposite of dogma) using evidence and sound mathematical logic, which is why that happens. Trying to use science to prove the weakness of science is a wonderful indication that you haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about.
- Alex3917 14y ago
  "Science doesn't have dogma. It isn't religion." That's simply false. If you don't believe that science has dogma, open up the first chapter of nearly every biology textbook. Most of them start out by discussing the dogma of science, which is roughly as follows: - We live in a materialist universe. - There exists nothing magical or supernatural. - All phenomena are in principle understandable by humans. - The scientific method is how we can understand the universe. There are many other assumptions behind science as well, but these are the ones that most textbooks usually enumerate explicitly. Being assumptions, none of them are provable. And in fact there is good reason to believe that many (or all) of them are wrong, which would essentially make all of scientific knowledge wrong as well. And while specific scientific results are at least in theory subject to being replaced, these general principles are considered sacred and unchallengable. Science is a religion just like any other. And if you actually look at the principles I listed, they actually look a lot like the four noble truths of buddhism. Different content, but still religious just the same.
  - emmelaich 14y ago
    I've never seen quotes like that. Which is not to say they're not the opinion of the authors. But it's not dogma, it's precision. Strong opinions weakly held as they say. Or more like working assumptions.
  - derleth 14y ago
    > Most of them start out by discussing the dogma of science, which is roughly as follows: They aren't dogma. They can be refuted with sufficient evidence. The failure of the religious to provide such evidence means they haven't yet been refuted. (It also says nasty things about the religious, but propriety forbids me from being more specific.) > there is good reason to believe that many (or all) of them are wrong What reasons? Be precise enough and you get a Nobel Prize and eternal adulation. > they actually look a lot like the four noble truths of buddhism Only to someone who totally misunderstands both science and Buddhism.
    - Alex3917 14y ago
      "They can be refuted with sufficient evidence." Except for that they can't, because everyone who believes in science just says that the reason they believe that science will be able to explain everything is that it has explained everything so far. This is just begging the question, and it's clear that no matter how much evidence there is that there are some things that science can't explain these will just be written off by those who have 'faith' in science. You can go over to r/science or r/atheism and find literally thousands of examples of this. >What reasons? Be precise enough and you get a Nobel Prize and eternal adulation. The obvious one would be that there is absolutely nothing to suggest that consciousness is material in nature. But again, the true believers refute this by listing all the other things that we didn't understand until science came up with some explanation, and saying that therefor science will most likely also be able to explain consciousness one day.