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I have some older relatives who were actually able to use a computer back then, thanks to the simplicity and brilliant design of Classic Mac OS. Now they are es

I have some older relatives who were actually able to use a computer back then, thanks to the simplicity and brilliant design of Classic Mac OS. Now they are essentially shut out of computing for the rest of their lives. They can just barely use their cell phones to make calls and send the odd text. They do all their banking over the phone. There are tons of people like this. Apple used to be the absolute market leader at making computing accessible for everyone. At some point they got big enough and powerful enough that they could ignore all that and just let their dev teams do whatever they want. They gave up on trying to make real computing accessible to the masses and just pushed all these users to the iPad.

II2II 2y ago
While Apple's ability to create "simple and brilliant" designs in the past can be attributed to the motivation and talent of their staff, I don't think you can say their current failure to do so implies the opposite. We live in a very different world. Computers are expected to do more and, regardless of how much Apple despises it, computers are expected to interact with other systems. Just think of Hypercard. Many people here will talk about how great it was, and it was great. Yet the most talented developers and designers in the world couldn't recreate it in a form that is both simple and reflects the needs of the modern world. It would always end up lacking essential features or be burdened by an overabundance of functionality.
leptons 2y ago
What about having 2 buttons vs 1 button makes something "inaccessible"? If anything having 2 buttons makes the options that are in the context of the current application more accessible. But people are incurious, stupid, and just dull-witted, I guess? So you really want the rest of us to have to suffer with 1 button because the lower end of the bell-curve can't handle 2 buttons for reasons related to stupidity?
- chongli 2y ago
  People who don't come to use a computer for the first time until middle age or later tend to struggle mightily. I'm not sure why, but they seem to have a strong aversion to experimenting with the system. I face this issue almost every day with my 74-year-old father and his iPhone. He can only do the tasks which I explicitly teach him and anything new (like changing a setting he's never changed before) requires me to show him the steps. The fact that changing a different setting in the Settings app is an almost-identical process never occurs to him. He just asks for help every time. Back in the Classic Mac OS days he did just fine with a 1-button mouse. He was able to click on and interact with everything and got what he needed out of the computer. A 2-button mouse is just utterly baffling to him. It turns every single thing on the screen into a fork in the road: do I left-click this or right-click it?
  - leptons 2y ago
    My 72 year old mother installs her own video cards and has a mouse with 5 buttons. YMMV, I guess. The 1 button mouse was not superior in any way, and the people that get confused by a mouse with more than 1 button probably should never look at a web page with more than one thing to click. Did your father ever drive a car? Is he aware there's more than one pedal and lever to use? Did he ever find his way to the windshield wipers or did you just drive around with the rain obstructing the view? I'm genuinely curious how such a person could function in this world in the last 80 years.
    - chongli 2y ago
      The pedals in a car always do the same thing every time you press them, in every car you get into. Mouse buttons are not like this. Different applications use them differently. There may be a sizeable chunk that are reasonably consistent but there are tons of outliers that do all kinds of bizarre stuff like using right click to select or to cancel an operation or to bring up a tool tip. Sometimes it’s left click to select and right click to move. Plus you never know what’s going to be in a context menu until you right click to open it. Sometimes you move the mouse slightly and right click something else and get a different context menu. For an older person with declining vision this can be very confusing. Fixed menus at the top of the screen are discoverable. You can even search for what you want in the help menu. Context menus are not discoverable. I’m glad your mother knows how to install video cards. My aunt worked at a TV factory installing boards into the case and soldering all the through-hole components to the board. She’s still pretty baffled by computers but she’s almost 80 years old and rarely needs them.
      - leptons 2y ago
        You have to be willfully ignorant or brain damaged to not understand how a 2-button mouse works after the first time using it. The context menu does different things depending on the context. Someone that can't understand that is seriously in trouble in life. It's not something that should be confusing at all. And as I said, hopefully your father never visits any websites, because they are all different with information in different places on every website. The world must be an extremely frustrating and hostile place for someone that gets confused by a 2 button mouse. I honestly feel bad for your father if everything you say is true.

II2II 2y ago

While Apple's ability to create "simple and brilliant" designs in the past can be attributed to the motivation and talent of their staff, I don't think you can say their current failure to do so implies the opposite. We live in a very different world. Computers are expected to do more and, regardless of how much Apple despises it, computers are expected to interact with other systems. Just think of Hypercard. Many people here will talk about how great it was, and it was great. Yet the most talented developers and designers in the world couldn't recreate it in a form that is both simple and reflects the needs of the modern world. It would always end up lacking essential features or be burdened by an overabundance of functionality.

leptons 2y ago

What about having 2 buttons vs 1 button makes something "inaccessible"? If anything having 2 buttons makes the options that are in the context of the current application more accessible. But people are incurious, stupid, and just dull-witted, I guess? So you really want the rest of us to have to suffer with 1 button because the lower end of the bell-curve can't handle 2 buttons for reasons related to stupidity?

chongli 2y ago
People who don't come to use a computer for the first time until middle age or later tend to struggle mightily. I'm not sure why, but they seem to have a strong aversion to experimenting with the system. I face this issue almost every day with my 74-year-old father and his iPhone. He can only do the tasks which I explicitly teach him and anything new (like changing a setting he's never changed before) requires me to show him the steps. The fact that changing a different setting in the Settings app is an almost-identical process never occurs to him. He just asks for help every time. Back in the Classic Mac OS days he did just fine with a 1-button mouse. He was able to click on and interact with everything and got what he needed out of the computer. A 2-button mouse is just utterly baffling to him. It turns every single thing on the screen into a fork in the road: do I left-click this or right-click it?
- leptons 2y ago
  My 72 year old mother installs her own video cards and has a mouse with 5 buttons. YMMV, I guess. The 1 button mouse was not superior in any way, and the people that get confused by a mouse with more than 1 button probably should never look at a web page with more than one thing to click. Did your father ever drive a car? Is he aware there's more than one pedal and lever to use? Did he ever find his way to the windshield wipers or did you just drive around with the rain obstructing the view? I'm genuinely curious how such a person could function in this world in the last 80 years.
  - chongli 2y ago
    The pedals in a car always do the same thing every time you press them, in every car you get into. Mouse buttons are not like this. Different applications use them differently. There may be a sizeable chunk that are reasonably consistent but there are tons of outliers that do all kinds of bizarre stuff like using right click to select or to cancel an operation or to bring up a tool tip. Sometimes it’s left click to select and right click to move. Plus you never know what’s going to be in a context menu until you right click to open it. Sometimes you move the mouse slightly and right click something else and get a different context menu. For an older person with declining vision this can be very confusing. Fixed menus at the top of the screen are discoverable. You can even search for what you want in the help menu. Context menus are not discoverable. I’m glad your mother knows how to install video cards. My aunt worked at a TV factory installing boards into the case and soldering all the through-hole components to the board. She’s still pretty baffled by computers but she’s almost 80 years old and rarely needs them.
    - leptons 2y ago
      You have to be willfully ignorant or brain damaged to not understand how a 2-button mouse works after the first time using it. The context menu does different things depending on the context. Someone that can't understand that is seriously in trouble in life. It's not something that should be confusing at all. And as I said, hopefully your father never visits any websites, because they are all different with information in different places on every website. The world must be an extremely frustrating and hostile place for someone that gets confused by a 2 button mouse. I honestly feel bad for your father if everything you say is true.