7 ms·

It's surprising that the issue of premature deaths doesn't resonate more with the general public as opposed to so many other seemingly minor issues with much le

It's surprising that the issue of premature deaths doesn't resonate more with the general public as opposed to so many other seemingly minor issues with much less of a personal impact. I wonder whether it's due to apathy or a sense that the issue is simply too complex to resolve.

pjc50 2y ago
You can see from the conversation in this thread that people invoke "personal responsibility": those dying young are other Americans, and people are happy to think that they personally are making better choices.
someguydave 2y ago
It is simple to resolve the criminality but the voters have decided they don’t like the answer (much more policing and incarceration)
- rainclouds 2y ago
  We already have more % population in jail than any other country. Mostly for drugs. The social cost is much less for getting in trouble for drugs in the US, but the incarceration rate is really high.
- jeffbee 2y ago
  None of the countries that are doing far better than us have anywhere near the level of incarceration that we suffer.
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    Asian countries have far harsher punishments for drug offenses, and their societal outcomes are better than both America's or Europe's.
    - meowfly 2y ago
      In most of Asia doing drugs (aside from the "normal" ones like alcohol and tobacco) is also considered something good people don't do. Here (USA) billionaires microdose acid and take molly in the desert. The culture around drugs is entirely different.
      - lupusreal 2y ago
        Drug use was extremely prevalent in Asia's early modern history. They stamped it out with harsh enforcement.
        meowfly 2y ago
        Maybe the US will end up learning a similar lesson.
      - someguydave 2y ago
        those billionaires should be in jail
    - Teever 2y ago
      Which Asian countries would you say are doing better than Finland and Norway? While Singapore has a lot of things going for it I wouldn't really consider it more free than Norway, even if drug consumption is substantially restricted there.
      - lupusreal 2y ago
        The US is usually judged against the Scandinavian countries by comparing homicide rates, so use the same to compare Singapore to the Scandinavian countries and you'll see that Singapore does much better. You could do the comparison using other crimes instead, but bodies are a more concrete metric. By the way, it's not just Singapore.
        someguydave 2y ago
- psychoslave 2y ago
  These are just palliative solutions. Avoiding to create criminals is far more relevant for building a sane society.
  - hagbard_c 2y ago
    Also avoiding to import criminals, see Sweden - where I live - for a good example of where that can lead [1]. For the naysayers and label-throwers I can only point at the statistics in the knowledge that these are immune to accusations of racism (et al). There's also a UN report which lifts up Sweden as an exception to the rule that violent crime is on the wane [2, page 119]: Sweden has experienced unprecedented levels of gang violence and firearm-related deaths in recent years ... Sweden had one of the highest levels of firearm-related deaths in a study over 20 European countries [1] https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriminalstatistik_i_Sverige#/media/Fil:Brottsstatistik_urval.png https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriminalstatistik_i_Sverige#/m... [2] https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/gsh/2023/Global_study_on_homicide_2023_web.pdf https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/gsh/2023/G...
  - someguydave 2y ago
    how do you propose to do that?
    - psychoslave 2y ago
      Telling that taking aspirine won't eliminate the root cause of the pain doesn't imply we know what are the actual root causes, and even less what would heal the person. Obviously, this is a complexe social topic. To pretend to provide a panacea of all criminality generation all by oneself is asking too much for any individual.
      - someguydave 2y ago
        No, it's simple. Policing works https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/cl2.1302 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/cl2.1302
  - 2y ago
lupusreal 2y ago
Most "premature death" isn't really random and individuals can eliminate most (not all) of their risk by making the right choices. For instance, choosing not to drink and drive significantly reduces (but doesn't eliminate) the risk of dying in a car crash. Choosing not to be a drug dealer reduces the risk of being shot. Choosing not to be a paraglider reduces the risk of dying in an accident. Of course some people, for political reasons, want to pretend that such choices don't exist and anybody who thinks they can have any control over their life is delusional. Rejecting such sentiments is the healthy choice.
- jeffbee 2y ago
  That's right, American homicide is not stochastic. It is far more likely to happen to a person who is themselves a criminal. Not being a habitual criminal cuts your risk of becoming a homicide victim by an order of magnitude. Suicide has a similar solution: if you're worried that you or someone in your household will kill your/themselves, not owning a gun slashes that risk by a large factor.
  - Teever 2y ago
    You're forgetting the frequent tragedies of mass school shootings that are more or less an entirely American phenomenon and affect innocent people at random. The knock-on effect of these events in American communities must be horrific. How many victims who survive them directly or who lose their loved ones to them fall into deaths by despair or go on to live severely blunted lives that cause them to act out in ways that are detrimental to your society? That's but a microcosm of the kind of stuff that Americans deal with that people in other countries don't. It isn't normal and it isn't something that your average citizen can just avoid by choosing better.
    - jeffbee 2y ago
      I am not forgetting about them, but they are demographically irrelevant. ETA: In the 25 years ending 2022, 122 people died in school shootings. That's 5 people per year. There are ~3000 homicides every year of Americans under age 20.
adamwong246 2y ago
As long as you raise the temperature slowly, the frog won't even notice.
michaelt 2y ago
My impression as an outsider is that America is the kind of country where a sizeable minority of people believe it is very important they be able to ride a motorbike without a helmet. Not necessarily because they personally want to ride a motorbike - but as a matter of principle. That government should govern as little as possible, that the fewer laws there are the more freedom people have, and that if you're not harming others the government should get out of your way. They would say if while riding a motorbike without a helmet you should crash and die that's tragic, but the price of freedom is that sometimes people will make bad decisions. I don't agree with this personally - but I can understand why American lawmakers would have a bias towards inaction.
- echelon 2y ago
  > I don't agree with this personally There are an infinite number of ways to kill yourself, degrade your health, or commit actions that lower your overall physical or financial fitness. We can't put bubble wrap around all of it. We evolved into this harsh physical world. We can be caring and educational and empathetic, but it's our universe to play in for a super short moment so long as we don't fuck it up for other people too.
  - michaelt 2y ago
    Yeah my feeling is more that due to practical problems, the idea isn't universally applicable. A motorbiker who dies in a crash isn't around to tell us he's cool with it, and his distraught family often won't be cool with it. So the "yeah the consequences are fine" voice often won't get heard. A motorbiker who gets left in a wheelchair might have a change of heart, and sue someone for compensation. Who wouldn't, if millions of dollars are on offer? Drunk driving endangers other road users and I support it being illegal, but some might say a drunk driver hasn't harmed others until they've actually caused an accident. Once you start adding in statistical harms done to society as a whole, that opens up a big can of worms. I feel that legalising the supply of all addictive drugs probably wouldn't be good public policy. However, I'm in favour of beer, porn, gay rights and music with offensive lyrics under the principle that if you're not harming anyone the government should get off your back.

pjc50 2y ago

You can see from the conversation in this thread that people invoke "personal responsibility": those dying young are other Americans, and people are happy to think that they personally are making better choices.

someguydave 2y ago

It is simple to resolve the criminality but the voters have decided they don’t like the answer (much more policing and incarceration)

rainclouds 2y ago
We already have more % population in jail than any other country. Mostly for drugs. The social cost is much less for getting in trouble for drugs in the US, but the incarceration rate is really high.
jeffbee 2y ago
None of the countries that are doing far better than us have anywhere near the level of incarceration that we suffer.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  Asian countries have far harsher punishments for drug offenses, and their societal outcomes are better than both America's or Europe's.
  - meowfly 2y ago
    In most of Asia doing drugs (aside from the "normal" ones like alcohol and tobacco) is also considered something good people don't do. Here (USA) billionaires microdose acid and take molly in the desert. The culture around drugs is entirely different.
    - lupusreal 2y ago
      Drug use was extremely prevalent in Asia's early modern history. They stamped it out with harsh enforcement.
      - meowfly 2y ago
        Maybe the US will end up learning a similar lesson.
    - someguydave 2y ago
      those billionaires should be in jail
  - Teever 2y ago
    Which Asian countries would you say are doing better than Finland and Norway? While Singapore has a lot of things going for it I wouldn't really consider it more free than Norway, even if drug consumption is substantially restricted there.
    - lupusreal 2y ago
      The US is usually judged against the Scandinavian countries by comparing homicide rates, so use the same to compare Singapore to the Scandinavian countries and you'll see that Singapore does much better. You could do the comparison using other crimes instead, but bodies are a more concrete metric. By the way, it's not just Singapore.
      - someguydave 2y ago
psychoslave 2y ago
These are just palliative solutions. Avoiding to create criminals is far more relevant for building a sane society.
- hagbard_c 2y ago
  Also avoiding to import criminals, see Sweden - where I live - for a good example of where that can lead [1]. For the naysayers and label-throwers I can only point at the statistics in the knowledge that these are immune to accusations of racism (et al). There's also a UN report which lifts up Sweden as an exception to the rule that violent crime is on the wane [2, page 119]: Sweden has experienced unprecedented levels of gang violence and firearm-related deaths in recent years ... Sweden had one of the highest levels of firearm-related deaths in a study over 20 European countries [1] https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriminalstatistik_i_Sverige#/media/Fil:Brottsstatistik_urval.png https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriminalstatistik_i_Sverige#/m... [2] https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/gsh/2023/Global_study_on_homicide_2023_web.pdf https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/gsh/2023/G...
- someguydave 2y ago
  how do you propose to do that?
  - psychoslave 2y ago
    Telling that taking aspirine won't eliminate the root cause of the pain doesn't imply we know what are the actual root causes, and even less what would heal the person. Obviously, this is a complexe social topic. To pretend to provide a panacea of all criminality generation all by oneself is asking too much for any individual.
    - someguydave 2y ago
      No, it's simple. Policing works https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/cl2.1302 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/cl2.1302
- 2y ago

lupusreal 2y ago

Most "premature death" isn't really random and individuals can eliminate most (not all) of their risk by making the right choices. For instance, choosing not to drink and drive significantly reduces (but doesn't eliminate) the risk of dying in a car crash. Choosing not to be a drug dealer reduces the risk of being shot. Choosing not to be a paraglider reduces the risk of dying in an accident. Of course some people, for political reasons, want to pretend that such choices don't exist and anybody who thinks they can have any control over their life is delusional. Rejecting such sentiments is the healthy choice.

jeffbee 2y ago
That's right, American homicide is not stochastic. It is far more likely to happen to a person who is themselves a criminal. Not being a habitual criminal cuts your risk of becoming a homicide victim by an order of magnitude. Suicide has a similar solution: if you're worried that you or someone in your household will kill your/themselves, not owning a gun slashes that risk by a large factor.
- Teever 2y ago
  You're forgetting the frequent tragedies of mass school shootings that are more or less an entirely American phenomenon and affect innocent people at random. The knock-on effect of these events in American communities must be horrific. How many victims who survive them directly or who lose their loved ones to them fall into deaths by despair or go on to live severely blunted lives that cause them to act out in ways that are detrimental to your society? That's but a microcosm of the kind of stuff that Americans deal with that people in other countries don't. It isn't normal and it isn't something that your average citizen can just avoid by choosing better.
  - jeffbee 2y ago
    I am not forgetting about them, but they are demographically irrelevant. ETA: In the 25 years ending 2022, 122 people died in school shootings. That's 5 people per year. There are ~3000 homicides every year of Americans under age 20.

adamwong246 2y ago

As long as you raise the temperature slowly, the frog won't even notice.

michaelt 2y ago

My impression as an outsider is that America is the kind of country where a sizeable minority of people believe it is very important they be able to ride a motorbike without a helmet. Not necessarily because they personally want to ride a motorbike - but as a matter of principle. That government should govern as little as possible, that the fewer laws there are the more freedom people have, and that if you're not harming others the government should get out of your way. They would say if while riding a motorbike without a helmet you should crash and die that's tragic, but the price of freedom is that sometimes people will make bad decisions. I don't agree with this personally - but I can understand why American lawmakers would have a bias towards inaction.

echelon 2y ago
> I don't agree with this personally There are an infinite number of ways to kill yourself, degrade your health, or commit actions that lower your overall physical or financial fitness. We can't put bubble wrap around all of it. We evolved into this harsh physical world. We can be caring and educational and empathetic, but it's our universe to play in for a super short moment so long as we don't fuck it up for other people too.
- michaelt 2y ago
  Yeah my feeling is more that due to practical problems, the idea isn't universally applicable. A motorbiker who dies in a crash isn't around to tell us he's cool with it, and his distraught family often won't be cool with it. So the "yeah the consequences are fine" voice often won't get heard. A motorbiker who gets left in a wheelchair might have a change of heart, and sue someone for compensation. Who wouldn't, if millions of dollars are on offer? Drunk driving endangers other road users and I support it being illegal, but some might say a drunk driver hasn't harmed others until they've actually caused an accident. Once you start adding in statistical harms done to society as a whole, that opens up a big can of worms. I feel that legalising the supply of all addictive drugs probably wouldn't be good public policy. However, I'm in favour of beer, porn, gay rights and music with offensive lyrics under the principle that if you're not harming anyone the government should get off your back.