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His Amazon stint was mentioned in Steve Yegge's famous "Platforms" rant [1] where the reason for his departure was described less amicably: > Jeff Bezos is an

His Amazon stint was mentioned in Steve Yegge's famous "Platforms" rant [1] where the reason for his departure was described less amicably: > Jeff Bezos is an infamous micro-manager. He micro-manages every single pixel of Amazon's retail site. He hired Larry Tesler, Apple's Chief Scientist and probably the very most famous and respected human-computer interaction expert in the entire world, and then ignored every goddamn thing Larry said for three years until Larry finally -- wisely -- left the company. Larry would do these big usability studies and demonstrate beyond any shred of doubt that nobody can understand that frigging website, but Bezos just couldn't let go of those pixels, all those millions of semantics-packed pixels on the landing page. They were like millions of his own precious children. So they're all still there, and Larry is not. The true reason for his departure is just a subject for gossip, but even today I agree that the Amazon store UI is confusingly dense and complicated, surprisingly bad UX for a Big Tech consumer-facing company. [1] https://gist.github.com/chitchcock/1281611 https://gist.github.com/chitchcock/1281611

hulitu 2y ago
> surprisingly bad UX for a Big Tech consumer-facing company. surprisingly bad ? Ever saw a Microsoft product ? A Google product ? I already set my preferencies. I don't want to set them a hundred times. No, i don't want a 1 px border, no title bar and no scrollbar.
- dmoy 2y ago
  Keep in mind that was written like 12 years ago, when things looked differently than they do now. (Notably that's pre material design and pre kennedy (the precursor to material))
  - DemocracyFTW2 2y ago
    article is from Aug 2005, so more like 19 years... I became suspicious when I was told the hero of the story left Amazon to join Yahoo!, which, y'know, was what people were wont to do back in the day, not so much anymore I'd guess
- kimixa 2y ago
  Or an apple product? :P Good luck trying to find a thunderbolt cable unless you already know they categorize it as a "Mac Accessory - Charging Essentials". Lots of big carousels showing a sum total of 3 items at a time, and you better know the what a thunderbolt cable looks like, and don't mistake it for "merely" a usb3 charging cable. Or the 0.5m vs 1m. Or using a mac - window management issues aside (it seems to encourage wasting screen space and peer at a tiny window in the middle of a massive screen....) - the "settings" app is a joke. A huge list of sections on the left, grouped seemingly arbitrarily, with a "Search" that only really works is you already know the exact wording of the option you're looking for. But hey, it's got fancy icons, so I guess that's nice. This is all a bit tongue in cheek - using a mac to write this. All UX is "bad" in different ways IMHO. "Objectively best" UX is a pipe dream.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    >Or using a mac - ...(it seems to encourage wasting screen space and peer at a tiny window in the middle of a massive screen....) Isn't this normal on Windows too? The few times I have to use it, it seems I'm always doing something where some sub-window will pop up that I need to use or read, but the stupid thing is comically small, but needs to be scrolled (because there's too much content inside it for its size), but I'm forbidden from expanding the window size the way you can with normal windows. This never happens to me in KDE: if a window is too small by default (which sometimes happens), I can always expand it.
  - pests 2y ago
    I don't think I've ever clicked into a category on Amazon. I wouldn't need to know it's under Mac accessories, id just use the search bar and type in thunderbolt. In what world would clicking through a hierarchical UI be faster or easier than a search?
gymbeaux 2y ago
My main gripe with Amazon is how slow it is. It takes me like 30 seconds to change my shipping address and payment method before placing an order. I always assume it’s because they’re using Glacier on AWS to drive that functionality.
- strangemonad 2y ago
  I literally chortled reading that. Thank you for making my day
- leptons 2y ago
  That sounds more like your hardware/internet than it does Amazon's fault - I have never had any delay when changing address or payment method while placing an order, and I place a lot of orders on Amazon.
  - gymbeaux 2y ago
    Fiber 2000Mbps up and down ~5ms latency It’s slow regardless of my internet connection
    - leptons 2y ago
      I timed it on my computer, in between my clicks there was about 4 seconds delay total when changing payment method and changing shipping address. Your "30 seconds" delay is definitely something specific to your computing platform. Maybe try upgrading your Pentium 1 computer?
      - gymbeaux 2y ago
        Do I break your balls too and say “I’ve never had any delay” and “there was about 4 seconds delay” are mutually-exclusive? Do I break your balls further by pointing out there was never a “Pentium 1” CPU?
        leptons 2y ago
IncreasePosts 2y ago
I'm an absolute nobody compared to Tesler, but I remember a hack week we did at Amazon probably in 2009 or so - the SVP (reporting directly to Jeff) was giving a little intro speech to what they hoped to see out of the hack week, and he ended with an admonition: "Whatever you do, DO. NOT. ATTEMPT. TO. REDESIGN. THE. SITE. UI.", and then later was told by him that Jeff will literally rip your head off if he caught wind of it.
nine_k 2y ago
But, sorry for stating the obvious, the point of the Amazon web site is not to be convenient, or beautiful, or understandable. Its purpose is to sell you stuff, more stuff, more often. I bet some non-zero amount of confusion is increasing sales. It's much like supermarkets that put simple repeat-purchase items like milk at the other end of the store, to make customers walk and notice other items.
- southernplaces7 2y ago
  I would argue that Amazon's UI could garner more sales and reconstruct more of its slowly fading popularity if it simply stopped being such a dumpster fire of bad design, confusion, chaos, searches that barely work and of course, rampant links to attempts at sales fraud. The confusion, coupled with Amazon's reputation inertia, does probably drive some bulk sales metrics, but it's a poison pill of scrounging what you can from existing users while potential new ones trickle away to sites that are simply better, easier to navigate and just less likely to sell you falsely packaged shit.
  - nine_k 2y ago
    What are these sites that are simply better? Also, Amazon's retail empire is very much buttressed by its speedy delivery service, and thus warehouses and the truck fleet. A much better web site sometimes cannot compete with next-day delivery. (And sometimes can, of course!)
    - themacguffinman 2y ago
      Etsy is pretty slick, although lately I've heard it has similar (but not the same) product/seller trust issues as Amazon. iHerb has a somewhat Amazon-like UI but noticeably less cluttered and more structured. It highlights a minimum "best by" date, which is also a guarantee that goes beyond pure UI design but provides the kind of customer-friendly interface that informs rather than confuses. I usually find Webstaurant product listings pretty informative and much cleaner. From Big Tech, Google & Apple may not have a comparable physical goods marketplace but the marketplaces they do have - books and applications - are much cleaner and more focused than their Amazon counterparts. Of course, the gold standard is McMaster-Carr. I know Amazon is more successful than those examples. Microsoft Windows is also much more successful than its competitors, but I don't think most people would see that and argue "the point of an OS/software is not to be easy to use or convenient or understandable". Certainly it's not the point of Windows but I'd say that's because competition involves factors unrelated to quality and quality is multi-dimensional, not because quality is "not the point".

hulitu 2y ago

> surprisingly bad UX for a Big Tech consumer-facing company. surprisingly bad ? Ever saw a Microsoft product ? A Google product ? I already set my preferencies. I don't want to set them a hundred times. No, i don't want a 1 px border, no title bar and no scrollbar.

dmoy 2y ago
Keep in mind that was written like 12 years ago, when things looked differently than they do now. (Notably that's pre material design and pre kennedy (the precursor to material))
- DemocracyFTW2 2y ago
  article is from Aug 2005, so more like 19 years... I became suspicious when I was told the hero of the story left Amazon to join Yahoo!, which, y'know, was what people were wont to do back in the day, not so much anymore I'd guess
kimixa 2y ago
Or an apple product? :P Good luck trying to find a thunderbolt cable unless you already know they categorize it as a "Mac Accessory - Charging Essentials". Lots of big carousels showing a sum total of 3 items at a time, and you better know the what a thunderbolt cable looks like, and don't mistake it for "merely" a usb3 charging cable. Or the 0.5m vs 1m. Or using a mac - window management issues aside (it seems to encourage wasting screen space and peer at a tiny window in the middle of a massive screen....) - the "settings" app is a joke. A huge list of sections on the left, grouped seemingly arbitrarily, with a "Search" that only really works is you already know the exact wording of the option you're looking for. But hey, it's got fancy icons, so I guess that's nice. This is all a bit tongue in cheek - using a mac to write this. All UX is "bad" in different ways IMHO. "Objectively best" UX is a pipe dream.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  >Or using a mac - ...(it seems to encourage wasting screen space and peer at a tiny window in the middle of a massive screen....) Isn't this normal on Windows too? The few times I have to use it, it seems I'm always doing something where some sub-window will pop up that I need to use or read, but the stupid thing is comically small, but needs to be scrolled (because there's too much content inside it for its size), but I'm forbidden from expanding the window size the way you can with normal windows. This never happens to me in KDE: if a window is too small by default (which sometimes happens), I can always expand it.
- pests 2y ago
  I don't think I've ever clicked into a category on Amazon. I wouldn't need to know it's under Mac accessories, id just use the search bar and type in thunderbolt. In what world would clicking through a hierarchical UI be faster or easier than a search?

gymbeaux 2y ago

My main gripe with Amazon is how slow it is. It takes me like 30 seconds to change my shipping address and payment method before placing an order. I always assume it’s because they’re using Glacier on AWS to drive that functionality.

strangemonad 2y ago
I literally chortled reading that. Thank you for making my day
leptons 2y ago
That sounds more like your hardware/internet than it does Amazon's fault - I have never had any delay when changing address or payment method while placing an order, and I place a lot of orders on Amazon.
- gymbeaux 2y ago
  Fiber 2000Mbps up and down ~5ms latency It’s slow regardless of my internet connection
  - leptons 2y ago
    I timed it on my computer, in between my clicks there was about 4 seconds delay total when changing payment method and changing shipping address. Your "30 seconds" delay is definitely something specific to your computing platform. Maybe try upgrading your Pentium 1 computer?
    - gymbeaux 2y ago
      Do I break your balls too and say “I’ve never had any delay” and “there was about 4 seconds delay” are mutually-exclusive? Do I break your balls further by pointing out there was never a “Pentium 1” CPU?
      - leptons 2y ago

IncreasePosts 2y ago

I'm an absolute nobody compared to Tesler, but I remember a hack week we did at Amazon probably in 2009 or so - the SVP (reporting directly to Jeff) was giving a little intro speech to what they hoped to see out of the hack week, and he ended with an admonition: "Whatever you do, DO. NOT. ATTEMPT. TO. REDESIGN. THE. SITE. UI.", and then later was told by him that Jeff will literally rip your head off if he caught wind of it.

nine_k 2y ago

But, sorry for stating the obvious, the point of the Amazon web site is not to be convenient, or beautiful, or understandable. Its purpose is to sell you stuff, more stuff, more often. I bet some non-zero amount of confusion is increasing sales. It's much like supermarkets that put simple repeat-purchase items like milk at the other end of the store, to make customers walk and notice other items.

southernplaces7 2y ago
I would argue that Amazon's UI could garner more sales and reconstruct more of its slowly fading popularity if it simply stopped being such a dumpster fire of bad design, confusion, chaos, searches that barely work and of course, rampant links to attempts at sales fraud. The confusion, coupled with Amazon's reputation inertia, does probably drive some bulk sales metrics, but it's a poison pill of scrounging what you can from existing users while potential new ones trickle away to sites that are simply better, easier to navigate and just less likely to sell you falsely packaged shit.
- nine_k 2y ago
  What are these sites that are simply better? Also, Amazon's retail empire is very much buttressed by its speedy delivery service, and thus warehouses and the truck fleet. A much better web site sometimes cannot compete with next-day delivery. (And sometimes can, of course!)
  - themacguffinman 2y ago
    Etsy is pretty slick, although lately I've heard it has similar (but not the same) product/seller trust issues as Amazon. iHerb has a somewhat Amazon-like UI but noticeably less cluttered and more structured. It highlights a minimum "best by" date, which is also a guarantee that goes beyond pure UI design but provides the kind of customer-friendly interface that informs rather than confuses. I usually find Webstaurant product listings pretty informative and much cleaner. From Big Tech, Google & Apple may not have a comparable physical goods marketplace but the marketplaces they do have - books and applications - are much cleaner and more focused than their Amazon counterparts. Of course, the gold standard is McMaster-Carr. I know Amazon is more successful than those examples. Microsoft Windows is also much more successful than its competitors, but I don't think most people would see that and argue "the point of an OS/software is not to be easy to use or convenient or understandable". Certainly it's not the point of Windows but I'd say that's because competition involves factors unrelated to quality and quality is multi-dimensional, not because quality is "not the point".